Precision Rifle's independent bullet drop test

[AndyHass]

If you check out the "new" features on Precision Rifles website (www.prbullet.com), you'll see an interesting test pitting their bullets against other aerodynamic bullets (and the XTP for comparison) looking specifically at 100 to 200 yd drop, conducted by "an independent shooting expert".

I think this was a great idea, and looks to be fairly well controlled and comprehensive.  I was not surprised to see that their Dead Center bullets did well (all top 7 places in fact).

The problem I have is that while the 250 gr Shockwave was in the test, the 200gr Shockwave is conspicuously missing.  Who in their right mind would conduct a test to determine the flattest-shooting bullets on the market, and go to the trouble of finding an independent shooter to do the testing, then leave out what is probably the flattest-shooting non-Precision Rifle bullet out there?  I have no doubt their DC bullets would have done well (but maybe not all top-7) even with its inclusion, so I cannot imagine why they would overlook it.

I tried to email them directly and inquire as to why the 200gr Shockwave was left out, but it appears their email service is not functional (I seem to remember them saying they were shutting it down). 

Unless they decide to include it, I guess we'll never know how the flattest-shooting bullets currently on the market stack up

[Busta]

Andy,

I am with you on the 200 grain Shockwave, can't believe it was overlooked, but probably left out. A guy was looking for a flat shooting load for Pronghorn in his Huntsman the other day and I posted links to both sites. I'm sure the 200 grain Shockwave would be around 3 or 4 worst case, but that is just a guess. The only way to know for sure is ask Toby to shoot it, but then again I don't remember T/C and Hornady as being one of his Sponsers. Here is my post, and anyone that shoots as much as them would know not to leave the 200 grain Shockwave out of the mix, unless there is something they don't want you to know.

Here is a test done on several bullets, the PR Bullets (all lead) have some very good trajectories with 100 grains 777 FFFG, as well as others. Just wish he would have thrown the 200 grain .400"/.50 caliber Shockwave in the mix. If you are looking for MAGNUM 150 grain pellet loads, the Shockwave/SST or Barnes Bullets would be the way to go. For flattest trajectory, the Duplex 195 grain .357" PR Dead Center is going to be the one to beat. If it will shoot out of your gun, I'm sure it will kill any goat out there. Here is some info on the test. Remember this is out of a longer barrel and with 100 grains 777 FFFG powder, your mileage may vary.

http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/Technical.html

http://www.prbullet.com/drop.htm

[Wolfhound]

I'd buy it if it came from a better source. Let's face it, Toby's sponsored by Precision Rifle, Parker Productions, and Barnes. He was sponsored by Hornady but they dropped him. I still remember the letter he published on his site saying basically that he would support those companies who support him. I also remember back to when he was still working for Savage saying that the Knight .52 was a marketing gimmick and now "Knight's big .52 caliber DISC Extreme is at the top of the heap when it comes to muzzleloading knockdown power." Of course Knight's a sponsor too. And it wasn't long after he was fired from Savage that he blabbed about his Savage blow up.

The only thing he's done lately I agree with is file his discrimination complaint.


 
   
 

[AndyHass]

I didn't know Toby was involved.  I didn't look past the data.

I was being a little diplomatic and not making any accusations; it certainly looks bad for them to leave out the prime competition, but I don't want to pass judgement until I know why it was left out.

I still have half a pack of duplex DC's left that are accurate in my old Traditions Lightning.  If no answer is given, I can run the test myself between the 195 duplex, 240 DC, and both Shockwaves.

[Biff Mayhem]

I didn't know Toby was involved.  I didn't look past the data.

I was being a little diplomatic and not making any accusations; it certainly looks bad for them to leave out the prime competition, but I don't want to pass judgement until I know why it was left out.

I still have half a pack of duplex DC's left that are accurate in my old Traditions Lightning.  If no answer is given, I can run the test myself between the 195 duplex, 240 DC, and both Shockwaves.

It only makes Precision Bullets look bad in the eyes of very few readers. Most folks going on a 'best bullet" search there don't realize that he (hypothetically) purposely left out the 200 SST/Shockwave.

So it's actually a smart move -- puts more money in his pocket advertising his as the best. He does the same with his small rifle primers. Yes... the small rifle primer is fine for alleviating crud rings -- until wet weather arrives. Then when the gun won't fire because of slightly wet powder, you wish you had the old breechplug with some super-hot Federal 209A primers in your Possibles Bag - because your intended harvest just ran-off into the thickets after hearing the rifle primer sound and your vocal curse a second or two later.

[AndyHass]

Word travels in the ML world...I don't think it's a smart move if that was their reasoning, because most serious shooters (those who care about 200 yd trajectory and are willing to pay $1+ per bullet) will notice the omission and spread the word much like is happening here; PR will end up looking worse in the end.  Quite frankly, if it is not eventually included or a legitimate reason given why it was left out I will probably take my business elsewhere.

As for the small rifle primer, my thumbhole Omega has a .25 ACP conversion.  If your powder somehow gets wet enough in a sealed breech not to go off, you did something seriously wrong and chances are the shot would not have gone where it was supposed to anyways.  The only misfires I've had were when I was lazy and left the gun loaded overnight and got condensation in it from temp changes or forgot to swab out oil before loading....and that happens with 209s too

Interestingly, I once had heavy fouling from a 4-hr range session clog up the ACP conversion so that the gun wouldn't fire.  The next day I swapped it out for the 209 and had the same problem.  I don't know what inline you shoot, but in my Omega if the small rifle primer goes off but the charge fails to ignite, the only sound you hear is the metallic clink of the hammer hitting the firing pin....the primer's noise is 100% contained in the gun.

[Wolfhound]

It only makes Precision Bullets look bad in the eyes of very few readers.

They already look bad to guys with a couple chronos. PR bullets published BC is way too high. Most of the chrono to chrono bc's I've seen are .1 under the published BC.

He does the same with his small rifle primers. Yes... the small rifle primer is fine for alleviating crud rings -- until wet weather arrives. Then when the gun won't fire because of slightly wet powder, you wish you had the old breechplug with some super-hot Federal 209A primers in your Possibles Bag - because your intended harvest just ran-off into the thickets after hearing the rifle primer sound and your vocal curse a second or two later.

I actually use the 25 ACP conversion. I never had a problem using loose powder and I've hunted in rainy weather with it. I don't buy the accuracy claims but it's worth it for getting rid of the crud ring and keeping the gun clean. It also eliminates the blowback for me. My Omega is the only gun I use small rifle primers in as neither of my Disc Extremes or Hawkeye crud that bad.

[Redhawk1]

I'd buy it if it came from a better source. Let's face it, Toby's sponsored by Precision Rifle, Parker Productions, and Barnes. He was sponsored by Hornady but they dropped him. I still remember the letter he published on his site saying basically that he would support those companies who support him. I also remember back to when he was still working for Savage saying that the Knight .52 was a marketing gimmick and now "Knight's big .52 caliber DISC Extreme is at the top of the heap when it comes to muzzleloading knockdown power." Of course Knight's a sponsor too. And it wasn't long after he was fired from Savage that he blabbed about his Savage blow up.

The only thing he's done lately I agree with is file his discrimination complaint.

I still use Precision rifle bullets and there 25 ACP conversion, I care about my performance, not the politics of the shooting world.

[Busta]

I e-mailed Toby late last night, I'm sure he will get back to me. I did state that the fair thing to do would be to include the 200 grain Shockwave in the mix. I guess, I'll just have to wait for his answer. Of course he would have no obligation to include it, but I would like to see it in there. He did include the 250 grain and 300 grain HORNADY SST's, but we all know Hornady doesnt' market the 200 grainer in the SST, even though they make them for T/C. I am guessing the 200 grain Shockwave would rank around #3 (give or take) in the test, but that is just a guess. I doesn't have the boat tail like the PR bullets do, so who knows. Sure hope he includes it, but shooting in the fall is different than in the spring. The weather is one big variable in this test, and can be very different from one day to the next.

[AndyHass]

I care about performance too, which is why I want the honest truth with regards to the 200gr Shockwave.  Of course, I also care about the ethics of the companies I give my money to, so if I feel it was left out to skew the results I just might take my business elsewhere.

[Busta]

Got a return e-mail, he plans on doing just about every saboted bullet made later this year. To be fair, there are alot of other bullets that are not in the test, but none probably as popular as the 200 gr Shockwave. He stated that he has shot the bullet before and it did shoot very flat. I look forward to his future tests. I have killed deer with the 200 Shockwave from 60 to 110 yards, they all traveled about 50 - 60 yards and were DOA. I shoot everything from 200 grain saboted bullets to 500 grain conicals, so I really don't care what the trajectory is. If I am shooting a particular bullet, I shoot it at all distances and adjust for the drop.

[AndyHass]

Thanks for the update.  Yep, lots of other bullets excluded, just none I could see which so obviously would have finished high.

[marylandeer]

I would like to see the results for these to.
250 Grain Polymer Tip - Ultimate Slam Series®
http://www.knightrifles.com/catalog.aspx?catid=ULTIMATE%20SLAM%20SERIES%20POLYMER%20BOATTAIL

[Busta]

I would like to see the results for these to.
250 Grain Polymer Tip - Ultimate Slam Series®
http://www.knightrifles.com/catalog.aspx?catid=ULTIMATE%20SLAM%20SERIES%20POLYMER%20BOATTAIL

Marylandeer,

I'm not positive, but I know Barnes makes that bullet for Knight, and I think it is Identical to the Barnes 250 grain TMZ. Scroll down the right side of this link to the Barnes and have a look for yourself, looks like it did pretty well in the test with 9.9" of drop.
http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/Technical.html

[marylandeer]

Dag on, that is the same bullet. I thought someone made that one special just for Knight. I kind of figured those Knight red hots were just regular Expanders and the Spitzer Boattails were regular Spit-Fires but didn't know who made the blue tips. Thanks for pointing it out to me Busta. I use the regular 250 Grain Expanders, their probably not very flat shooting due to that huge hollow point but boy do they knock the deer for a loop!

[dmurphy317]

While I don't have exact data on the 200SW T/C says it has about 3" less drop at 200 yards. It did not say compared to what. I ran some comparisons on a balistic calculator to approximate the test results and the 200 would fall about 5th or 6th in the test with a drop of around 7.9 to 8.3", depending on MV. The 200's energy curve is very similar to the 250. The 250 drops about 9 more inches at 300 yards vs. the 200..

It will be interesting to see the results when they get around to it.

[AndyHass]

It depends how you run the test....do you standardize powder charge or MV?   Now, to TRULY say "flattest-shooting", I think you need to standardize MV.  However, from a practical standpoint, I see the value in choosing 100gr charge as, IMHO, that's about where most loads in most guns begin to experience problems with accuracy.

Now, at 100gr charge, I agree the 200gr SW would be around 4-6th on the list.  However, in my experience and that of many people I know, it is tough if not impossible to push any PR bullets over 1800-2000 fps depending on the gun without losing accuracy (likely due to the softness of the lead).  I can push the 200gr SW to 2100fps with 110gr charge; so if I tested each bullet at the highest velocity that shot accurately out of any of my MLs (say 1.5" 100yd group) and compared them on that basis, the 200gr SW would actually win.

PR will debate that their bullets cannot be shot faster (they certainly doubted my claims on the phone, but they haven't shot my guns and are hardly impartial), but that's been my experience.