QUESTION FOR TC HAWKEN 50CAL SHOOTERS 1:48 LOADS & ACCURACY ?

[zermatt7]

I recently restored a 1972-73 TC Hawkens 50 cal with the origianl28" 1:48 twist barrel....Has a new TC Custom shop trigger installed...bore looks very nice  (the little tradiitons drop in bore lights work great)

I'm looking to work up a good 50 to 150yard load without dislocating my shoulder....
I've looked here and other sights and have read of people swearing by the accuracy of loads from
90grains 777 2fg with a 180 grain pr bullet qt 40
to
110 grains of Goex pinnacle with a 410 conical...Hence my confusion

I love the way the rifle feels and looks and was wondering what type of accuracy to expect / hope for out of the factory 28" 1:48 twist barrel ?

Powder...Goex P. or 777 2or3 F  ?
Powder Amount by volume ?
Sabot - Bullet -  Conical  ? 
#11 Caps...Pretty much come to the conclusion that  RWS is the way to go here...if I can fid them in Atlanta
.....not interested in shooting round balls  (YET)

I have experience with a an NEF/ H&R  Huntsman .50 cal with a 1:28 Twist...Considerably different animal than the Hawken....!

Plan to use the gun for Deer- Coyote -Turkey (maybe on the turkey)

TRIED TO SEARCH HERE A FEW TIMES AND HAD SOME TROUBLE WITH THE GOOGLE FEATURE ?

Thanks Alot for your time and advice
Eric
zermatt707@yahoo.com

[lonewolf5348]

I have a t/c flinter 50 cal. made in the early 70's with the stock barrel 1 in 48 twist: I would say Round Balls shoot excellent with 90 grains of goex BP and a wad under the ball.I don't think the QT 40 bullet sabot will perform well out of t/c 50 cal. barrel and 90 grains of triple 777 has a little more recoil then 90 grains of BP.I have played with some sabot in the 50 cal. flinter seem .451 bullets are hard to load,I did find a excellent bullet /sabot that works excellent seem they are Keith HP 300 grainer boattails  in 44 cal with green sabots sold under tradition firearms but they can be purchased also by precision that sell the QT'S.

[GA_36Seneca]

I recently restored a 1972-73 TC Hawkens 50 cal with the origianl28" 1:48 twist barrel....Has a new TC Custom shop trigger installed...bore looks very nice  (the little tradiitons drop in bore lights work great)

I'm looking to work up a good 50 to 150yard load without dislocating my shoulder....
I've looked here and other sights and have read of people swearing by the accuracy of loads from
90grains 777 2fg with a 180 grain pr bullet qt 40
to
110 grains of Goex pinnacle with a 410 conical...Hence my confusion ....

I've got a '70s era Hawken that I've done a little load work with.  I've always had best luck with 2F or 3F Goex.  Pyrodex works well at the range, but I've found it a bit fickle to ignite in humid weather (hangfires).  A good turkey/coyote load for me has been 50 gr of 3F under a patched roundball (.490 with .015 patch).  Have taken 2 turkeys with that load aiming at base of neck.  My deer load consists of 85 gr of 2F under a 320 gr T/C Maxiball.  Any heavier and my Hawken tends to open up groups.  I've had problems with the T/C Maxihunters and haven't been able to get them to shoot well.  The Hornady 385 gr Great Plains bullet works well in the Hawken for lots of folks, but I don't have a load I can recommend.

As an aside, I've not had great success using T/Cs Bore Butter.  When I first bought my rifle, I was lubing Maxiballs with Crisco and it would shoot cloverleafs at 50 yds.  When I switched to Borebutter several years ago, my gun's accuracy gradually went south.  I figured the rifling was getting worn (I bought the rifle used), so I had T/C rebarrel it with a newer barrel that has the Quick Load counterbored muzzle.  Worst decision I ever made!  Didn't shoot any better with Maxis and my roundball accuracy fell way off.  I finally decided it was the lube.  Since I typically hunt with this rifle, I still use the prelubed Maxis w/Bore Butter, as I don't have to worry about corrosion if I can't clean the rifle for a few days, but I need to spend some time shooting and experimenting with lubes to find a better accuracy load.

BTW, I have a number of boxes of Hornady Great Plains .50s and Maxihunters I bought from a friend, so if you want to try some, I can save you some money.

In what part of Atlanta are you located?  I'm in the Buford area.

Winston

[roundball]

"...When I switched to Borebutter several years ago, my gun's accuracy gradually went south..."

Winston, just for info, bore butter does build up after repeated use unless it's cleaned out to the bare raw metal after every use...and the gradual buildup will cause exactly the problem you described...nothing wrong with the barrel, just a gradual buildup of bore butter which causes a gradual loss of accuracy.

Best way to recover a bore with buildup is to use a some Birchwood casey Blackpowder Cleaning Gel...dissolves all that gunk inside a bore, then just always remember to clean the barrel in steaming hot soapy water & a hot water rinse after every use, include a couple dozen quick strokes with a bore brush, and you'll never have a problem.

I saw a post a guy made a long time ago that was the best example of why hot water is best when using bore butter...he said:
Take a breakfast plate with some yellow egg residue dried and stuck to it, hold it under a cold water faucet, and nothing happens;
But hold it under a hot water faucet and in just a couple seconds the egg residue (bore butter) just melts and slides right off the plate.

Fortunately I learned this 15+ years ago when I started using Natural Lube 1000 (bore butter) in my TC Hawkens and the bores are still as accurate and like new looking today as they were when they left the factory.

[zermatt7]

GA seneca 36....

I'm over in Cumming, 371 & Hwy 9

where do you get Goex Pinnacle around here and should I use 2FF or 3FFF  ?

Has anyone had luck with Saboted Loads in the 1:48 barrel ?

Thanks

[simonkenton]

Bass Pro Shop over at I85 and Sugar Loaf Parkway sells Goex, and all kinds of muzzleloading stuff.

[zermatt7]

SIMON KENTON,

thanks, I'll pick some up...have you read the the Wilderness Empire series by Allen W. Eckhert ?

[quickdtoo]

Eric,

Have you seen PR's info on the 1:48" accuracy? I haven't shot those in my TC, but I have shot the Buffalo Bullet 302gr sabot load in my .50cal GM 1:70" drop in RB flint barrel, they do just fine for deer hunting accuracy, 2½-3" @ 100yds with my poor eyes the last time I shot them which was in '94, good enough to take a quail's head off at 40yds, anyway, as that's the only meat I've made with it.

Tim

[Smokepole cowboy]

My .50 cal Hawken likes .490 round ball, .15 patch and 80 grains FFG Goex black powder.

[zermatt7]

Tim,

If you mean this ...

"This bullet, when married to a black sabot that I found out of Kentucky, is absolutely unbelievably accurate. Using a 300 grain .45 Keith Nose I have shot 3 shot .659" groups with my 1-48" Plainsman flintlock, 3 shot .542" groups with my Hawken"

That is what got this whole deal started...That and some  say 1:48 hawkens wont shoot roiund balls accurately  and round balls wont kill deer...and others who I respect say the 1:48 is a tack driver with round balls  & wont shoot sabots...and round balls stop deer in their tracks....it gets confusing !   the latter group arent trying to sell me anything either. And I think I'm getting a handle on it now thanks to a few pm's.

So that is why I wanted the opinion of people on this site....Oh and I remembered I have shot a sidelock before...two years ago
Italian made  Hawkens replica  1:48 twist  28" bbl  percussion  shooting two 50 grain 777 pellets with some power belts and maxiballs on some one elses reccomendation.
 At 25 yard the bullets were going through the 4x4 backstop  sideways and blowing big holes in it !!!   OOPS   

[quickdtoo]

Here's what I saw at PR...

We have had success with 1:48" twist barrels as well as T/C's 1:38" twist barrels using full charges of powder and the 180 to 195 grain bullets. I would select the 180 grain bullet for use in the 1:48" ...

http://prbullet.com/qt.htm


And this....
http://prbullet.com/ex.htm

As far as the TC not shooting round balls well, I've been to many, many black powder rendezvous, I'd have to say a third to half of the shooters are shooting off the shelf TC Hawkens or the Italian and Spanish TC clones, and patched round balls are the only thing they shoot in em. Certainly if round ball accuracy wasn't good, they wouldn't be using them. I'd guess that those that can't get good accuracy with them don't take the time to work up a load which can take some time. I've had 2 TC Hawkens, a .50 and a .54, both shot round balls excellent. I still have one of em, but it's been converted to flint.

As far as round ball killing ability, this country was fed by round ball killed game for about 200yrs!! They're still working now as well as they did then, just within the limitations of the round ball which is relatively short range, compared to a modern bullet, due to it's poor ballistic coefficient.

Pick your projectile wisely and match it with the firearm and you'll do well, if you want to be accurate and have good killing potential at 150yds, I wouldn't choose a roundball for anything beyond about 100-125yds, but go with the saboted round or bore sized conical and practice at that range. Personally, my eyes aren't good enough with iron sights to be shooting at live game at that range, I'm comfortable to about 100yds, maybe a tad more, after that I need optics or at least an aperture sight and a heck of a good rest!!!!

Tim

[roundball]

Here's what I saw at PR...

We have had success with 1:48" twist barrels as well as T/C's 1:38" twist barrels using full charges of powder and the 180 to 195 grain bullets. I would select the 180 grain bullet for use in the 1:48" ...

http://prbullet.com/qt.htm


And this....
http://prbullet.com/ex.htm

As far as the TC not shooting round balls well, I've been to many, many black powder rendezvous, I'd have to say a third to half of the shooters are shooting off the shelf TC Hawkens or the Italian and Spanish TC clones, and patched round balls are the only thing they shoot in em. Certainly if round ball accuracy wasn't good, they wouldn't be using them. I'd guess that those that can't get good accuracy with them don't take the time to work up a load which can take some time. I've had 2 TC Hawkens, a .50 and a .54, both shot round balls excellent. I still have one of em, but it's been converted to flint.

As far as round ball killing ability, this country was fed by round ball killed game for about 200yrs!! They're still working now as well as they did then, just within the limitations of the round ball which is relatively short range, compared to a modern bullet, due to it's poor ballistic coefficient.

Pick your projectile wisely and match it with the firearm and you'll do well, if you want to be accurate and have good killing potential at 150yds, I wouldn't choose a roundball for anything beyond about 100-125yds, but go with the saboted round or bore sized conical and practice at that range. Personally, my eyes aren't good enough with iron sights to be shooting at live game at that range, I'm comfortable to about 100yds, maybe a tad more, after that I need optics or at least an aperture sight and a heck of a good rest!!!!

Tim

Tim, you're completely correct...that's just vintage negative spamming by swampman...and that's only one of his negative positions on things...he spams all the websites with statements about 1:48's...and the irony is that he uses the phrase "I've been shooting for 30 years" in an effort to lend credibility to his claims...when in fact, it's just the opposite...it means that in 30 years he hasn't learned to shoot a 1:48" that 10's of thousands of others have shot successfully for decades and continue to do so...my signature line says it all.

[quickdtoo]

I hear ya Roundball!! I guess those tens of thousands of 1:48" shooters didn't know that they wouldn't shoot good, so they happily continue to shoot them in their ignorance!! 

Thx,

Tim

[zermatt7]

Thanks Alot for all the replies...

I think I picked up some misinformation while web searching this subject...misinformation on the internet !
Whats the world coming to ?

I read an online article that roundballs give  lousy performance on game and have hardly no KE left at 100 yards...Thats obviously wrong ! 
 
I just want a good effective / accurate / relatively flat shooting load that gives  the most effective / humane killing power on game.
 
I had planeed on intalling a good Williams or Lyman peep sight set up and that is why was wondering considering a range out to 150 yards...If its acuurate at 150 it will be great at 100...That and the more accurate the rifle and load the better it will help to compensate for the human element while hunting. 

I have found it very interesting and helpful that no one here seems to reccomend / or shoot sabots and 300gr bullets out of their 1:48 twist Hawkens barrels, as that was the direction I was headed before posting my inquiry here ! Based on several internet articles and  muzzleloader websites...But when the rubber meets the road reality is a little bit different !

[quickdtoo]

I haven't killed any deer with a round ball beyond about 75-80yds, but all have been dead within 50-60yds, with a blood trail that was easy to follow. All were broadside or real close to it, standing shots with complete pass thrus except one which was 30yds or so at a slow run, the ball went thru both lungs and lodged in the offside knee, it was well flattened, but all there. All were with a flintlock, too btw! Load was a .500" rb, pillow ticking patch lubed with pine scent BoreButter and 95gr of 3f Goex.

Good idea on the peep sights, I must admit that I had to put a peep sight on the rifle I shot those deer with, I had already moved the rear sight towards the muzzle twice cuz of my old eyes, it just was impossible to see clearly and one of the factors in my not shooting at rondys anymore, being competitve meant a lot to me, althought I sure do miss the friends made at them.

All of my Hawkens cept the flinter had Lyman 57SML sights fitted to them, including 3 of the Cabela's sporter Hawkens which were fast twist chrome lined barrels. All of my current muzzleloading rifles cept the TC Hawken, wear Williams WGRS sights and that's what was on the Lancaster when I hunted with it, if I hadn't done that, I doubt I would have been able to shoot it well, and hunted game deserves the best you can do to accomplish a clean kill. And to that end, would include using projectiles that would insure that out to your 150yd range limit.

Tim

[Rainman/GA]

GA seneca 36....

I'm over in Cumming, 371 & Hwy 9

where do you get Goex Pinnacle around here and should I use 2FF or 3FFF  ?

Has anyone had luck with Saboted Loads in the 1:48 barrel ?

Thanks

We ought to get together.  I was up at Riverbend G.C. with a friend this weekend.  Just had to do some shooting with my .36 Seneca...at least until I broke the ramrod off in the bbl.   (I knew I should have made up a range rod beforehand - )

Never tried Pinnacle, always went with 2F & 3F.  I've used both 2F & 3F in my .50.  Both shoot well in my rifle, just remember to back off about 15% or so when using 3F, as it burns faster (and cleaner in my rifle) than 2F, causing pressures to rise a bit faster.

BTW, Bass Pro Shop carries Goex as the other poster mentioned, but you have to ask for it at the counter, as it's not advertised.  I'm not sure how much they get for it, but I'm sure it's pricey.  A buddy of mine claims Sabots shoot great in his Hawken, but I've never wanted to jazz mine up with anything that modern.  If I want to use pistol bullets, I'll shoot them out of a centerfire handgun.   

Winston

[zermatt7]

Winston,

We'll have to hook up...the only range I've been to here is the Wilson Shoals DMZ !  I never dreamed so many people used AR-15's for deer hunting !

Again I'm in Cumming....I've joined the Ga. State Muzzle Loaders Assoc. at least twice...talked to Tina and Greg on the phone but have not  made it to a shoot yet

Sounds like Goex 3f is the Ticket...Does Bass Pro carry Swiss ?

Eric,
zermatt707@yahoo.com

[Swamp Yankee]

Nice going swampman,      Eric comes to the forum for help and all you can tell him is his gun is no good because it can't shoot a round ball. Well you haven't learned much in 30 years have you? I don't know where you picked up all this negitivity and contrary to what you say aTC 1-48 barrel is extremely accurate, just as accurate as any 1=66 I know I own both. So give a little thought before you post again......"Swamp Yankee"

[Swamp Yankee]

Eric,
    Decide for yourself, youve read all the post. Can everyone be wrong except mark the swampman? Maybe it's just that round balls fly differently down in the swamps of Mary Esther. Eric this is a great site for info don't let the bias of one man change that thought.
    Best of luck with this years hunt,...Jim

[roundball]

Nice going swampman,      Eric comes to the forum for help and all you can tell him is his gun is no good because it can't shoot a round ball. Well you haven't learned much in 30 years have you? I don't know where you picked up all this negitivity and contrary to what you say aTC 1-48 barrel is extremely accurate, just as accurate as any 1=66 I know I own both. So give a little thought before you post again......"Swamp Yankee"

Swamp Yankee, you're a wise man...I've also got 1:48's, 1:66", and 1:70's...in .45/.50/.54/.58cals...all the 1:48's shoot 1.75" - 2.95" groups at 100yds from the bench.
Some people just can't get other people to interact with them normally so their tactic is to provoke controversy...they get run off of several other ML boards for the same exact old tired negative behavior...then they show up at another board and try it all over again...they never learn.

The only solution for trolls is to completely ignore them.

[quickdtoo]

the only solution for trolls is to completely ignore them.

Works for me!

Tim

[Slamfire]

My .50 cal Hawken likes .490 round ball, .15 patch and 80 grains FFG Goex black powder.

My rifle likes the cowboy's load, but wants .018" pillow ticking for the patch.

[zermatt7]

quickdtoo,

All of my Hawkens cept the flinter had Lyman 57SML sights fitted to them, including 3 of the Cabela's sporter Hawkens which were fast twist chrome lined barrels. All of my current muzzleloading rifles cept the TC Hawken, wear Williams WGRS sights and that's what was on the Lancaster when I hunted with it, if I hadn't done that, I doubt I would have been able to shoot it well, and hunted game deserves the best you can do to accomplish a clean kill. And to that end, would include using projectiles that would insure that out to your 150yd range limit.

You lost me some where    What kind of sights do have on your TC Hawkens ?

And since you have actually shot  guns  with both sights,  which do you like better... and please clarify if it's for target or hunting...the Lyman 57sml or the Willaims wgrs....setting aside for a moment that the Lyman Sights probably cost more than my entire Huntsman Rifle...At least until I ordered the nifty new stock for it...   

Eric

[quickdtoo]

I only have one Hawken right now, it has primitve sights on it, but it has had a 57SML on it which uses the tang screw and a drilled and tapped hole for mounting. It's a great sight for hunting or targets depending on the aperture you choose to use in it, whether a disk with a small hole for targets or a twilight aperture or no aperture at all, use it like a ghost ring for hunting, have used em all at one time or another. I sold my last 57SML to a friendly fella at the range recently for $20 cuz he needed one bad and didn't have a lot of money, nice old fella, made his day and mine, I woulda give it to him but he wouldn't have that, had to give me some money!!! They're about $70 now, but worth it.

The Williams WGRS mounts on the barrel right at the breech plug. Pic of one, although not for a muzzle loader, they are model specific, this one might work on the top flat. H&R sells one for the Huntsman for $18.

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=681364

Idaho Ron has a 57SML on his Renegade in this thread...

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/index.php/topic,96674.0.html

Tim

My only traditional rifle....

[zermatt7]

quicktdoo

thanks for the info and the pics...very helpful !


I think I'm going to go with the lyman 57sml...Let me know if you come accross any good deals on one...I realize $20 is too much to hope for but I dont want to get a new one if I dont have to.


Eric

[Bear Rider]

I hear ya Roundball!! I guess those tens of thousands of 1:48" shooters didn't know that they wouldn't shoot good, so they happily continue to shoot them in their ignorance!! 

Thx,

Tim

Actually, you are quite correct. I used to shoot in a club that had more than its share of current and former state champions. NONE of them used a 1:48 twist for round ball. The twists were all 1:60 or slower.

You see, there's accurate -- and then there's ACCURATE.

[roundball]

One of the main problems with the whole discussion about barrel twist accuracy is that people make blanket across the board statements with no qualifiers what-so-ever, which typically makes the statement immediately incorrect on it's face.
There are a number of things wrong with any flat statement that 1:48" twists are not accurate.

1) The term accuracy is never defined so the statement is meaningless and incorrect;

2) The caliber is never mentioned which also makes the statement meaningless and incorrect;

For example, you just mentioned "all sorts of state champions at your club" use only 1:60"...no 1:48"...yet, the 1:48" twist is indeed the round ball twist for the .40cal...not 1:60"...so you can see what I mean, that when people start making blanket statements about accuracy, they're completely off base without any qualifiers.

That's the reason I take issue with those statements whenever I see them posted...particularly when certain posters have a long history of negativism and intentionally continue to post them for the purpose of provoking controversy...so my signature line is the counter point to the ridiculous statement that "1:48" twists don't shoot round balls accurately".

On the other hand, if somebody wants to make a qualified statement something like month in and month out a 1:70" twist in a .54 or .58cal will usually produce tighter groups than a 1:48" in those calibers...then, there might be an opportunity for meaningful dialogue...but to make a flat across the board statement that "1:48" twists are not accurate" is absurd...just ask any match shooter who uses a .40cal ML what his twist is.

[lostid]

cheesh calm down bill,,it's gonna be ok.
 you just said middlin twist shoots good,fine,your right.
 Then you said the proper twist shoot's better,,ok,fine,your right again.
Wow! cheesh!
 I guess the best part of this thread I've read (and I ain't no good at pasting and posting "qoute after qoute just to back up sumpthing), is the load development part and how it takes time and shooting too get it done.
 There is one old qoute I can think of, " Beware the man with one gun". Why is that?
 Well, a feller that's owned just one gun has shot it alot! He's tried this in it,,he's tried that in it,,he might have even changed a few things and tried it again just a little different. The point is, he's put alot of rounds through that one gun of his. It might be just a favorite gun he shoot's alot. It might be a bit dis-concerning here to some members,,but 200 rounds to break in a new gun is about right,and 100 rounds to change either Patch thickness, Lube properties or Powder style/make/or charge, is what it takes for "accuracy"
 "Accurcy".,, Bill, is defined by the individual and his personal requirements. "gut" shooting deer and harvesting year after year may be a different kind of accuracy than a 98 6X  10 shot score.
 There is no magic, pbr combo that will blanket all shooters of Traditonal bp arms for accuracy.

 I shoot rendevous alot. I hunt with trad arms. I own several bp guns, they all shoot a bit different. I like'm all,but I do have a favorite ,best wishes

[Swampman]

I consider MOA in a rifled barrel accurate.  I consider less than MOA in a rifled barrel inaccurate.  Good luck in you venture.

[dodd3]

roiund ball is rite the hawkin shpop sells there kit [Hawken Rifle Kit - Getz barrel,    34" in length, tapering from breech to muzzle 1-1/8" - 1"   1x48" twist] from what i have read the hawkin guns where made mostly whith a  1x48" twist it is also historical fact that in[ 1846 Historical record shows Jake Hawkens making conical bullet rifles at this time.]]
bernie