Author Topic: QUESTION FOR TC HAWKEN 50CAL SHOOTERS 1:48 LOADS & ACCURACY ?  (Read 6462 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Idaho Ron

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 291
  • Gender: Male
Re: QUESTION FOR TC HAWKEN 50CAL SHOOTERS 1:48 LOADS & ACCURACY ?
« Reply #60 on: September 16, 2006, 02:03:59 PM »
Speaking of "flinchlocks" I love the part in the Patriot where the two sides are fighting and the men are shooting. The turn their heads away from the spark! HA HA HA, I think that is how most of the guys in the club I was in must shoot. They could not hit a bull in the A$$ with a butter paddle.   Ron

Offline Bear Rider

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 115
Re: QUESTION FOR TC HAWKEN 50CAL SHOOTERS 1:48 LOADS & ACCURACY ?
« Reply #61 on: September 17, 2006, 08:37:18 AM »
That's like the scene in latest remake of the Last of the Mohiccans where the indian waits until he sees the flash in the pan and then ducks out of the way.

That was also as far as I got in that movie.
Flintlock! Anything else is imitation.

Offline captchee

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 432
Re: QUESTION FOR TC HAWKEN 50CAL SHOOTERS 1:48 LOADS & ACCURACY ?
« Reply #62 on: September 18, 2006, 05:34:55 AM »
Speaking of "flinchlocks" I love the part in the Patriot where the two sides are fighting and the men are shooting. The turn their heads away from the spark! HA HA HA, I think that is how most of the guys in the club I was in must shoot. They could not hit a bull in the A$$ with a butter paddle.   Ron

 Ok well I guess I will get this even farther off topic .
 Once again a flint lock properly taken care of is just as fast as a cap lock . The only noticeable difference is  found under timed photography and  even then its less then a 1000th of a sound . I have shot flintlocks exclusively for 20+ years  and I can say that on the shooting line I watch  folks  often  having many more problems with their  percussions then those  that are shooting flintlocks
“ not counting those just entering into the flintlock ignition “.
 Flinching  the flash is  from in experience . I can tell you that  in short order  one will never sees the flash again . Now jerking the trigger is something that both percussion and flint have in common . That however has nothing to do with the ignition system

 As to the rest . LoTM was holly wood  and while it had its good points , it takes a knowledgeable person
To find them  ohh and silk ??? Wont give you any longer range , im sorry that’s holly wood as well.
As is the giant weapon  thrown and used by  Russle Means . Sorry wrong size   IE made to fit the big screen lol

 Ok as to seeing British turn their heads  in the patriot. Myself I was glad that someone finally showed this  .
 We have to remember a few things . These troops ,while highly trained  were  part of  a weapons system not individualized

 IE sarge ,,, im left handed . How about a left handed bess ?
 Reply !@#$ @#$%^&& s  you right handed weapon now bugger off and get in line! Befor I @#$#@ ^&* your %^&^%$  lol .

 Also now think on this . Your rank and file ,  closed ranks and dress right dress .
 Now any one here that’s shot a flint or stood within 5 ft   on the wrong side of the lock when fired can tell you about how much flame and fire comes out  and hits you . 

So now think about where  the fire is going in a rank and file  volly ? The person to your right  is less then 24 inches from your pan . Turning ones head would probably been very common  for left handed shooters   who would get hit  twice as hard or the un trained  troops . Maybe very common  through even the trained ranks .

 We also have to remember accuracy was not an issue . These men were full part of a complete  weapons system  and  tactic that we find today  to be ,,, welll fool hardy to say the least  and we cant seem to relate to  it in most any way .
IE .look at the guy turning his head  how is he supposed to hit anything ?

 Well there is the point , he wasn’t . his job was  follow orders . If an opening was made in the rank in front of him he was to step up and fill that  hole without hesitation or question , point his weapon down range at the enemy  and fire  , re load and  thus be ready to fire  again  when the command was give.
 This was volley fire  and the point was not to be accurate but to put as many rounds down range into the general vicinity of the enemy  under a given amount of time . There was no need to be accurate, the shear number of projectiles took care of  what needed to be done .

 I have read where the common standard for the British was “ I could be off here with the 6  but “ 4 to 6 round per minute  depending on classification of your unit  . that’s fire , load  and fire at a minimum of every 15 seconds . Two ranks  of fire ,1  round per weapon , every  7 ½ seconds .

Now place yourself on the receiving end of a volley of  say a company  of trained regulars . Your standing in the open next to your buddies  at less the  40 yards . Loading you A@# off when you’re here the command from the office  across from you to FIRE!!!,, second rank !!!!  You have not even had time to properly wet yourself and  you have been covered with  240 ,, 69 cal round balls whizzing in you general directions. that’s  120 rounds down range  just from one company , every 71/2 second . Now  imagine if you will that   that being  2 ,,3 companies  or the complete front line .

IMO I wouldn’t care if the fella was looking at me or not . I getting my hind end to the nearest tree as fast is my   feet will get me their .


 So basically as I said above   we have problems relating until we  start to ask why would a person do this , whats the history behind ????
 Then suddenly we realize  and see those little parts  of hollywood that hold a small degree of truth . while at the same time calling foul to Magwa jumping the flash lol

Offline Davemuzz

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2009
Re: QUESTION FOR TC HAWKEN 50CAL SHOOTERS 1:48 LOADS & ACCURACY ?
« Reply #63 on: September 20, 2006, 02:44:25 AM »
The real solution is to limit the muzzleloading season to flintlocks only. ;D

I don't know if that's a solution to anything except to resolve a philosophical argument between hunters. I do think it's true that hunting with a flintlock is more of a practice of technique and craft than using an in-line with a scope. The in-line's are no more than a 30-30 without the brass shell. They are very accurate rifles that use modern primers for ignition. Just no brass. (yes, no smokelss powder...but sub-moa at 200 yards).

Here in Pa. there is a seperate "early" muzzleloader season that a hunter can use an in-line or a flintlock or caplock. Then there is a late flintlock only season.

I think it's simply a way for the game commission to extend the season for those hunters who wish to hunt using those types of guns. With the in-lines, the hunter effectively has one shot. Maybe two if the deer is "blond" (sorry blond gal's). That still does present some challenge to the hunter.....as opposed to the rifle season where he may have 5 shots available to him. It may make a better hunter out of him.

And, if it extends the season and allows a person to get a younger person out because it allows more time, then I'm all for it. I'm all for anything that allows more time to bring young kids into the sport of shooting and hunting.

Just my $.02

Dave.

Offline S.S.

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2840
Re: QUESTION FOR TC HAWKEN 50CAL SHOOTERS 1:48 LOADS & ACCURACY ?
« Reply #64 on: September 20, 2006, 05:17:23 AM »
Talking about the movie THE PATRIOT in the above post,
I have seen manuscripts of weapons drill from that period of time,
and some show the musket not even against the shoulder. it is pressed between the right
elbow and the right side of the body ! Almost hip shooting it !
Massed fire was the key, not accuracy. I could not even imagine what it would have been like
to have Taken a Volley of seventy five caliber balls at fifty paces. Much less stand there and take it time after time. Those were well disciplined men !
Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
"A wise man does not pee against the wind".

Offline roundball

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 375
Re: QUESTION FOR TC HAWKEN 50CAL SHOOTERS 1:48 LOADS & ACCURACY ?
« Reply #65 on: September 20, 2006, 12:50:53 PM »
The real solution is to limit the muzzleloading season to flintlocks only. ;D

"...they (inlines) are very accurate rifles that use modern primers for ignition. Just no brass. (yes, no smokelss powder...")
Dave, FYI...inlines made to use smokeless powder started being made a couple years ago...they're nothing more than a big scoped modern high power rifle that simple happens to load from the front...no more skill involved in using them for deer hunting than there is a big scoped Remington 700....not sour grapes or anything, just stating facts from my own actual hands on experience from my own muzzleloading start back in '89 with a big Leupold scoped Knight MK85
"Flintlocks.......The Real Deal"
(Claims that 1:48" twists won't shoot PRBs accurately are old wives tales!!)

Offline Davemuzz

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2009
Re: QUESTION FOR TC HAWKEN 50CAL SHOOTERS 1:48 LOADS & ACCURACY ?
« Reply #66 on: September 20, 2006, 02:33:33 PM »
RB,

Ok...I stand corrected. They now can use smokless powder. I didn't know this as I don't own one and I probably never will own one. (I say probably....Grandma said "never say Never"). I hunt with a flintlock. Even during the "early muzzle loading season" here in Pa, if I already bagged a buck in bow, I would use my flintlock.

However, I still stand by my statement that if this allows a person additional time in the woods to hunt, and if it can allow that person to bring in a younger person with him (or not) then I really don't see anything wrong with it.

It's not the same today as it was 25 years ago. A guy may have to work 2 jobs to support his family or may be required to work overtime in the "hunting season" or whatever. If this gives him additional time in the field who does it harm? Someone's principals? The doe tags are already issued. It doesn't matter if they are hit with a shotgun slug, 45\70, 308 or an  in-line. Dead is dead and tags are filled. If the hunter is satisfied and the game is taken legally....so what.

Dave.

Offline roundball

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 375
Re: QUESTION FOR TC HAWKEN 50CAL SHOOTERS 1:48 LOADS & ACCURACY ?
« Reply #67 on: September 20, 2006, 02:55:33 PM »
Dave, I noticed you comment about no smokeless and simply posted to let you know that they are now available to even use smokeless...

And I won't be drawn into the tired old debate about why a big scoped high power modern "muzzleloader" is considered problematic by traditional oriented ML enthusiasts...that's something a person either just gets or they don't...and it has nothing to do with taking young people hunting, legalities, tags being issued, or anything like that at all

Peace

"Flintlocks.......The Real Deal"
(Claims that 1:48" twists won't shoot PRBs accurately are old wives tales!!)

Offline Davemuzz

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2009
Re: QUESTION FOR TC HAWKEN 50CAL SHOOTERS 1:48 LOADS & ACCURACY ?
« Reply #68 on: September 20, 2006, 03:53:45 PM »
R B,,

I agree. A person either just gets it, or they don't. If the season is expanded via an in-line season--so what. If you shoot a deer with a 410 slug and it dies....do you think it knows if the slug came from a 410 long gun or a T\C 10" hand gun?

There is nothing that stops a person from taking a flintlock out in rifle season. But then, a person either gets it, or they don't.

Dave.