Author Topic: Newbie ?'s on an old .58 Huntsman (Read 2266 times)

TribReady · « **on:** September 04, 2006, 09:41:36 AM »

I know a little about ML (have a .50cal Huntsman) but a guy I know is going to send me his old .58cal Huntsman. I've done a little research and know it's from 1976, case-hardened and obviously an SB-1.
Here's my questions:
Can I get a rifled shotgun barrel for this and use it deer hunting?
With the SB-1 receiver/frame, any chance a .30-30 barrel could be installed?
It seems like the breech on these older huntsmans can be screw in or push in. In either case, would it be possible to replace with a new breech plug and use my current primers?
Should I just look it over, clean it up if needed, and try to sell?
Thanks for any answers/suggestions.
Awesome site for ML info!!

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** September 04, 2006, 01:51:30 PM »

Welcome to GBO!! H&R/NEF won't fit any barrels to frames built prior to 1987. The orginal H&R went out of business in 1986, they are considered a different mfr by the current H&R/NEF.

I'll leave the Huntsman question for others, they aren't legal here, or I'd have bought one long ago!

Tim

Quote

Additional barrels may be added to firearms of our manufacture since 1987 only, with a serial number that begins with N or H. We do not install additional barrels on any other manufacturer’s firearms.

http://hr1871.com/Support/accessoryProgram.aspx

TribReady · « **Reply #2 on:** September 04, 2006, 04:05:01 PM »

Thanks quickdtoo for the quick response and the welcome.
I knew that NEF wouldn't fit the barrel for me (since pre-87) but I didn't realize it was due to the change of ownership--which makes sense stictly from a liability standpoint. But, I've seen replacement barrels for sale and since I'm really in no rush to complete this project, I should be able to fit it myself.
Again, I'd like to be on the safe side and keep pressures down and stay with either a rifled shotgun barrel or a .30-30 barrel.
Anyone have any experience with barrel replacement on an older Huntsman like this one??

Then again, maybe I'll put $100 shipped on it and try to sell it for him. Just gathering info.....thanks for any responses

quickdtoo · « **Reply #3 on:** September 04, 2006, 04:21:26 PM »

I can't tell ya on the fitting of older frames, but a lot of us do fit our own barrels(see the FAQ and Help sticky in the Centerfire forum), I don't know if the older frames will work with the newer barrels, I know one difference is the older H&Rs used a snap on forend, current models use a screw. I've seen barrels on ebay that had the snap on forend and didn't bid on them cuz it may not be possible to fit them. I have an early 1900s something H&R 12ga that has the snap on forend, there's no way it would fit a current frame, there's too much difference in standing breech to hinge measurement.

Tim

mcgiiver · « **Reply #4 on:** September 04, 2006, 05:01:32 PM »

I have a number of old Huntsman rifles and shotgun. The problem lies in the firing pin. Its a big wide firing pin that may not set off primers on regular basis. its designed for number 11 caps only. The only caution is , if the gun has the push in breechplug, make sure you wait a long while when a hangfire occurs before opening the gun. Someone, apparently got killed by getting a breechplug shot to his head by opening the gun too soon.

TribReady · « **Reply #5 on:** September 05, 2006, 03:06:45 AM »

I went an got it last night so I knew exactly what it was like.
The receiver/frame looks identical to my current huntsman. The foreend screws in, exactly like my newer one, except this one has an additional barrel ring attached, too. My current barrel fit into the receiver.

Would it be possible to file down the last 1/16"-1/8" of the firing pin to make the contact point smaller? I wouldn't want to file too much, but a little shouldn't hurt it's strength, I don't think.

Also, I cant tell if it's a push in breech or not. He didn't have any tools with it and my current breech plug removal thing won't work on this at all.

trotterlg · « **Reply #6 on:** September 08, 2006, 01:20:53 PM »

quickdtoo : I got a 58 Huntsman that is WA state legal. They machined about 30 degrees out of the top of the barrel breach so that the cap is exposed to the elements (required for WA State) Mine is clearly a factory job, but anyone with a mill could do it, if you want I will post a picture. The 58's already uses the old style cap on a nipple. Larry

TribReady · « **Reply #7 on:** September 08, 2006, 03:23:41 PM »

This barrel is machined out like that too.
I'm probably going to replace the breech plug with one from Hubbards (I think that's the place) that will use the #209 primer and either sell it as a ML to my brother or try to sell online.
I can't seem to find a shotgun barrel for it online---I hate to see this one go, the stock is the straight type, no pistol grip, and it just looks awesome.
Thanks again to all for the responses and furthering of my Handi-education

trotterlg · « **Reply #8 on:** September 08, 2006, 05:45:02 PM »

I don't know why you would convert it to a shotgun primer, they have excellent ignition the way they are. Larry

TribReady · « **Reply #9 on:** September 08, 2006, 07:23:30 PM »

Alright, then, why mess with a good thing

Thanks Larry. I took out the breech plug tonight and am just making sure it's clean and I can "see thru" it ok and I'll leave it as is. I have a little canister of #11 caps just lying around anyway.
I guess I thought that the older caps didn't fire/ignite as well.

I really hope by brother decides to buy this off of me, it is such a nice looking stock and reciever.
His only concern is the .58cal. He'll have to use loose powder (which I know allows for better variation and fine-tuning) and slightly more expensive sabots. Personally, I think bigger is better always when hunting..especially when I can't remember taking a shot past 100 yards.

Muzzleloading is just so cool. I don't know how else to describe it. It's like bowhunting with a gun. The only drawback is here in Wisconsin, the ML season follows the regular 9-day gun season which equals cold and pressured/holed-up deer.

Hammerspur · « **Reply #10 on:** September 09, 2006, 12:30:21 AM »

You mentioned going to 209 priming on this rifle... replacement of the breechplug is NOT neccessary to accomplish this. Just the Hubbard's primer holder alone is sufficient as their stuff is compatible. If the original breechplug is OK a Hubbard's primer holder will fit it just right.

As far as the large girth firing pin, I have fired scads of rounds through mine with nary a misfire using 209's and the original, fat firing pin. Also as I mentioned on the other(Numrich Breechplug) thread re: this rifle, the option of using #11's or tophat primers remains a viable one with the OEM firing pin, and the nipples for them are readily available as TC inline replacements.

If I lived in a state that required open breech muzzleloaders for hunting I'd probably Dremel a gap on one or both flanks of the breech end of the barrel to satisfy the requirement... much the configuration of the new factory Huntsmans. Then if hunting in bad weather I'd wrap a bit of tape over the holes and damn the

'Woods Nazis'

... a 2 in. strip of tape is certainly easy enough to remove and discard if called for.

TribReady · « **Reply #11 on:** September 09, 2006, 04:14:22 PM »

ok guys ,next question (and forgive my ignorance on this subject please)

::
I've cleaned up the breech plug, the o-ring is in perfect shape, yet I still can't "see thru" the plug--the hole (I'm sure it has a real name but you know the hole) must be "gummed up" with residue. I've sprayed with brake cleaner, rust remover, and soaked in Ed's REd solution and nothing.
I tried, without a nipple wrench, to take out the #11 nipple.. No matter how hard I tried, it wouldn't budge. Any chance it is not removable and attached to the breech plug as one single piece?
This gun is looking better every time I look at it, but that darn breech plug is still the thing I come back too with ??'s

Thanks for any responses and thanks for all the info so far

Hammerspur · « **Reply #12 on:** September 10, 2006, 12:57:55 AM »

It's quite doubtfull that the breechplug and nipple are a single unit, I've never seen or heard of one in this application... have seen them in some others but don't remember where just now.

If you can't see through the ''flash hole'' in the nipple it's clogged... how clogged is hard to say but with what is easy to answer with the catchall: FOULING (powder, lube...). Use a piece of fine wire, the stiffer the better, as a nipple pick to clear the obstruction in the flash hole.

As far as removal of the nipple from the breechplug I'd suggest clamping the breechplug in a well padded vise to prevent damaging it and forcing that nipple out with whatever works: nipple wrench, a socket, vise grips, whatever. The nipple is nothing to be too concerned about. As I recall the original #11 nipple they come with is a simple, short affair like those on sidehammer muzzleloaders, Hawkens and the like, and easily replaceable with another like it. If I'm not mistaken the standard TC sidehammer nipple retro-fits perfectly. (I know I have both lying around in a bin somewhere!)

If the breechplug should get damaged, you have two sources of replacement breechplugs, Numrich as you mentioned and Hubbard's.

For ignition, there's the Hubbard's 209 primer holder available, the Flame Thrower style nipple in either #11 or musket cap or the basic, short TC #11 or musket nipples all of which will work in the original, the OEM replacement from Numrich or the Hubbard's replacement breechplug.
Steve

TribReady · « **Reply #13 on:** September 10, 2006, 02:08:28 PM »

I got the npple removed and cannot clear the hole out so I'm just going to buy a new nipple this week--the Gander Mtn in town has TC replacement nipples that appear identical or I may try Scheels for a 209 primer holder....
The breech plug itself is in awesome shape

Thanks so much for the responses. +I'm going to have this big bore beauty back in business, baby

myarmor · « **Reply #14 on:** September 25, 2006, 07:43:56 AM »

I thought I would bump up this topic, as I am now the happy owner of the old .58 Huntsman

What kind of loads should I start out with? What would be max for this old timer?
And could someone give me the exact link to what 209 primer nipples would fit, It would be most appreciated. I will start out mainly with round balls for her.
-Aaron

Hammerspur · « **Reply #15 on:** September 25, 2006, 08:36:18 AM »

Try Hubbard's Outdoors at this link, their 209 holder works: http://www.hubbardsoutdoorproducts.com/

They offer other items too, like breechplugs for the old Huntsman and ramrods for all models.

As an alternative you can also use "TopHat" musket caps with the nipple listed here:

http://www.gunaccessories.com/ThompsonCenter/ReplacementNipples.asp

Here's a pic of my .58 Huntsman and the .45 Shikari I had converted to muzzleloader some years back:

myarmor · « **Reply #16 on:** September 27, 2006, 09:45:08 PM »

Steve those are some great looking Handis buddy, very nice.
I was looking around the Hubbards site and couldn't find the price, I guess I will just have to call and see, no big deal. I'm about to order some round balls of Midway and see how this barrel performs. I ended up switching the old barrel to a newer SB-1 receiver due to the looser fit on the old one. It fits up super tight now. I could have spent the time fitting it to the older receiver, but I wanna try it out now. I guess I will start out with a 100gr starting load. As I am not too familur with BP, mostly centerfire, shotguns, and rimfires.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #17 on:** September 29, 2006, 07:44:07 AM »

Aaron, just an FYI....if you decide to try the musket nipple, RWS makes flangeless musket caps, they look just like a big #11 and have lots of fire in comparison, they work excellent with T7 in my Black Diamonds. Not easy to find locally as 209s are, but I use em cuz 209s are illegal here.

I ordered a 1000 and split em with my shootin partner who uses em too.

Tim

http://www.gamaliel.com/cart/customer/product.php?productid=3872&cat=351&page=1&XCARTSESSID=5e9e0d0cb610290361aa7abc7fc9e448

mcgiiver · « **Reply #18 on:** October 15, 2006, 02:45:46 AM »

Quote from: Hammerspur on September 25, 2006, 08:36:18 AM

Try Hubbard's Outdoors at this link, their 209 holder works: http://www.hubbardsoutdoorproducts.com/

They offer other items too, like breechplugs for the old Huntsman and ramrods for all models.

As an alternative you can also use "TopHat" musket caps with the nipple listed here:

http://www.gunaccessories.com/ThompsonCenter/ReplacementNipples.asp

Here's a pic of my .58 Huntsman and the .45 Shikari I had converted to muzzleloader some years back:

Are we talking about the Hubbard's Mag Spark device here? Seems to me it would be hard to fit inside the Huntsman breech.

Hammerspur · « **Reply #19 on:** October 16, 2006, 02:05:23 AM »

Nope, I'm referring to the standard Hubbard's 209 primer holder (nipple?) specifically for use with H&R's. Although it doesn't appear on their site, trust me they have it... I have TWO of them, one in each of the pictured rifles. This is what they use in the replacement breech plugs they make, unless other fitment is requested, I presume.

Their primer holder uses no plastic carrier, you simply insert the 209 into the cylindrical recess in the holder. It fits with sufficient snugness to prevent accidental falling out. It does tend to get sticky with repeated firings at the range due to fouling so I keep a small set of slip-joint pliers in the range kit to grasp the 'rim' of the primer and urge it out. Any of various primer pulling tools I've seen offered by different manufacturers would work as well no doubt, or you could easily enough fashion your own.
You do NOT need help extracting a spent primer after one or two shots, finger tension alone will do it... no need to tote another tool in the field!

The Mag-Spark is for open breech side hammers. It's a two piece affair, primer holder and some sort of screw-on cover with a 'firing pin' in it which lights off the primer when struck by the percussion style hammer.
When you think about it this effectively makes a side hammer lock a closed breech system, protected from the elements.

Here's the page regarding Mag Spark: http://www.hubbardsoutdoorproducts.com/mag.html

myarmor · « **Reply #20 on:** October 26, 2006, 12:05:59 AM »

Well I finally got out yesterday to try out the old girl. I couldn't get the old primer nipple clear, so I ended up using a very small drill bit and drilled it out. Opened up the hole a small bit and it worked great for me.
I was using Pyrodex loose powder and patched round balls. It has been so long sence I have fired a ML -about 15 years- it was like learning it all over again. Still not sure of my measurement or powder, but it was a lighter load. Anyway it shot excellent! It was getting dark and I only set up about 50 yards or so, but was nailing cans easliy. I am impressed to say the least, and very happy.
Now I need some advice....
I have a brass measure, that extends out the bottom. Do most all these measure out to same grain? How do I know exactly how much I am loading? I reload for all my centerfire rifles, so I am well learned on a powder scale. But I don't know it that will help me as I am not sure of volume to weight..

Also what would be near max load for it, as I don't want to load it too hot?

What solvents to clean it with?

TribReady · « **Reply #21 on:** October 26, 2006, 05:09:45 PM »

Aaron,
It's been awhile since this post started and it's interesting to read thru the progression.
I'm really glad the ML shot well for you and I'm glad it's working out. Soda cans are alot smaller than deer, so it sounds like you're pretty much all set

I think, from what I've picked up, you can slowly work up the loads until accuracy starts to fail. That ML might be older, but it's made well, and it can handle normal ML loads (100gr) I'm sure

Again, this forum has been great for everyone, from trades to info to.......

Keith Lewis · « **Reply #22 on:** October 26, 2006, 06:13:29 PM »

Now I need some advice....
I have a brass measure, that extends out the bottom. Do most all these measure out to same grain? How do I know exactly how much I am loading? I reload for all my centerfire rifles, so I am well learned on a powder scale. But I don't know it that will help me as I am not sure of volume to weight..

Also what would be near max load for it, as I don't want to load it too hot?

What solvents to clean it with?
First: Make sure you have a black powder volume grain measure. There is no comparison of weight to volume for black powder or equivalent powders like Pyrodex, APP, Tripple Seven etc. etc. Volume loading is what is recommended for muzzleloaders. Your rifle should not see loads above 90-100 grains volume measure with bullets at 300grains or less. I would consider a 100gr volume black powder with a 300gr bullet absolutely the maximum and possibly too much for reasonable shooting. It is possible to measure several volume loads and then weigh them and determine a weight for the given volume and powder type which many do (including myself). Usually the guys that weigh their charges are also reloaders so the equipment is available and it just seems more precise to weigh each charge the same. If yuu use some of the substitute powders like Tripple Seven or Black Mag'3 it is recommended that you reduce the loads by at least 15% as they have more energy per volume than standard black powder.
Next: As far as cleaning it depends on what powder you are using. Real black cleans best with hot water and soap (many use dish deteregent although I would caution as some have bleach in them. You can buy cleaning mixtures like Rusty Duck or T/C 13 and they also work well but are somewhat expensive compared with hot water and soap. Most of the substitute powders (except Pyrodex) clean up pretty well with just plain water. Use a drying agent like alcohol after cleaning and oil the bore with a good rust preventative. Bore butter is popular with some although I think it is not so good as some of the other possibilities like Sheath, Ballistol, or any good petroleum oil. You just have to be sure the oil is removed well before shooting the next time. Ballistol is one that is not so important that it is completely removed as it seems to not react badly with black powder or the substitutes. I would strongly recommend that you try to get rid of the push in breechplug. A hangfire can be deadly in that rifle.

Quote

DanielWGriggs · « **Reply #23 on:** October 26, 2006, 06:20:32 PM »

Arron I have one of the older 58 cal jewels and hunt deer with it . Mine has the slip out breech plug . I use 75grains of 2f and a tightly patched 562 round ball. The Minies in 577 work well and are sure medicine for deer. I have never shot one over 75 feet with it. It has always performed.

myarmor · « **Reply #24 on:** October 26, 2006, 08:46:39 PM »

Quote from: TribReady on October 26, 2006, 05:09:45 PM

Aaron,
It's been awhile since this post started and it's interesting to read thru the progression.
I'm really glad the ML shot well for you and I'm glad it's working out. Soda cans are alot smaller than deer, so it sounds like you're pretty much all set

I think, from what I've picked up, you can slowly work up the loads until accuracy starts to fail. That ML might be older, but it's made well, and it can handle normal ML loads (100gr) I'm sure

Again, this forum has been great for everyone, from trades to info to.......

Thanks man. I am happy with it's performance so far. And surprised too. I had to switch stocks to get slightly tighter fit for the old frame. One of my current SB-1's has the best fit with this barrel, so I might end up switching it over to that one.

I have 2 full cans of Pyrodex that need to be shot, so thats what I will be using in this rifle for a the foreseeable future. And it looks like it works very well so far in the limited loads I have tried out.
Thanks for the info Keith, I apprecaite it.
I don't even have the tool to take out the breach plug, so I am kind going in the dark. I could see a possible danger like has been discussed, with this older design. But is it really necessary to change it out to a screw in?
How do I take it out???

I'll keep the 100gr limit in mind then, as I'm not sure how the twist will handle a higher velocity load with patched round balls...

Hammerspur · « **Reply #25 on:** October 27, 2006, 03:04:09 AM »

I don't even have the tool to take out the breach plug, so I am kind going in the dark. I could see a possible danger like has been discussed, with this older design. But is it really necessary to change it out to a screw in?
How do I take it out???

Quote

I don't think changing from the push-in breechplug to screw-in is do-able, practically speaking.... not much material in the breech end of the barrel to thread, and you'd have to get a plug machined to your dimensions.

As far as removal (if the original is what you ask about) just run the ramrod down the muzzle and push (push-in/push-OUT).
If it's tight use a length of hardwood dowel you can rap with a hammer or block of wood.

The plug should be removed and mating surfaces cleaned after every shooting, just like the rest of the bore.

As far as hangfires being dangerous, use of #11 ignition may offer the chance for one, but with either musket caps or 209 primers hangfires are very unlikely. If one did occur it would be due to propellent being too wet or otherwise compromised to ignite... in that case a spontaneous, delayed light off is not very likely.

Any cartridge firing weapon can pose the same pitfall...
If you don't open the breech immediately after a primer fails to set the charge off, where's the danger?

Steve

Keith Lewis · « **Reply #26 on:** October 27, 2006, 04:58:00 AM »

[

As far as hangfires being dangerous, use of #11 ignition may offer the chance for one, but with either musket caps or 209 primers hangfires are very unlikely. If one did occur it would be due to propellent being too wet or otherwise compromised to ignite... in that case a spontaneous, delayed light off is not very likely.

Any cartridge firing weapon can pose the same pitfall...
If you don't open the breech immediately after a primer fails to set the charge off, where's the danger?

That is the thing to remember. If you do experience a hangfire or what you think is a lack of ignition. WAIT A VERY LONG TIME before opening the breech and when you do do not open it with any part of your body in front of the breech end of the barrel. If you follow that simple rule the rifle is not going to hurt you.

Steve

Quote

myarmor · « **Reply #27 on:** October 27, 2006, 10:43:12 AM »

Quote from: Hammerspur on October 27, 2006, 03:04:09 AM

I don't even have the tool to take out the breach plug, so I am kind going in the dark. I could see a possible danger like has been discussed, with this older design. But is it really necessary to change it out to a screw in?
How do I take it out???
Quote

I don't think changing from the push-in breechplug to screw-in is do-able, practically speaking.... not much material in the breech end of the barrel to thread, and you'd have to get a plug machined to y oyour dimensions.

As far as removal (if the original is what you ask about) just run the ramrod down the muzzle and push (push-in/push-OUT).
If it's tight use a length of hardwood dowel you can rap with a hammer or block of wood.

The plug should be removed and mating surfaces cleaned after every shooting, just like the rest of the bore.

Steve

Ok just to clairify...so I just use a snug fit wooden dowl in the barrel, peck on the end sticking out with a hammer or block of wood and the plug should slowly come out? If so thats nice. What an easy clean up. I always hated ML's because of the timely clean up.

Quote from: Keith Lewis on October 27, 2006, 04:58:00 AM

Any cartridge firing weapon can pose the same pitfall...
If you don't open the breech immediately after a primer fails to set the charge off, where's the danger?

That is the thing to remember. If you do experience a hangfire or what you think is a lack of ignition. WAIT A VERY LONG TIME before opening the breech and when you do do not open it with any part of your body in front of the breech end of the barrel. If you follow that simple rule the rifle is not going to hurt you.

Steve
Quote

I did have a couple misfires, and I did exactly that. Waited awhile, and opened the breach facing away from me. Kinda just seemed natural

I thank you all for your advise, I really appreciate it all. I am sure you will hear more questions from me soon.

Hammerspur · « **Reply #28 on:** October 28, 2006, 02:04:48 AM »

"Ok just to clairify...so I just use a snug fit wooden dowl in the barrel, peck on the end sticking out with a hammer or block of wood and the plug should slowly come out? If so thats nice. What an easy clean up. I always hated ML's because of the timely clean up." (myarmor)

The only reason you should need to knock it out as above is because it's stuck from lack of cleaning and lube.
Ordinarily the breechplug should drop out like a sack of beans with just a push by hand with a ramrod.

ALSO if you want to minimize the cleaning/maintenance regimen a great deal, ditch the Pyrodex... it's the nastiest, ugliest fouling producing muck ever! Any of the newer propellents reduce the hassle involved dramatically.

Steve

myarmor · « **Reply #29 on:** October 28, 2006, 06:33:41 AM »

I took it all apart last night and did a full clean on it. I had to do a little pecking to get it out, but it came. Trib, you did a great job cleaning this thing, and I thank you for it.
I am liking this barrel more and more.
I will try some other powders eventually, but for now I need to shoot all this Pyrodex up.
I have heard that 777 is probably the cleanest....is this true?