Author Topic: Theory Shot to pieces. (Read 2325 times)

Fred M · « **on:** September 07, 2006, 08:57:51 PM »

Some one send me an e-mail stating that he read my web page about keeping the latch shelve dry and clean. He did that and claimed his rifle shot all over the place after he cleaned and dried the shelve..

He went back to what he always did, oiling the latch shelve and accuracy was restored. The next time I take out a Handi I will give it a try. Think about it? It could actually work. The lube will allow the latch to go further forward for a tighter lock up. Specially as you snap the rifle shut. A good application for Moly-Fusion.

Who knows we might be on to something?

dodd3 · « **Reply #1 on:** September 07, 2006, 10:51:17 PM »

fred ive always done it with a silicone spray.i even spray it down inside the action seems to give a beter trigger pull, it dries and does attract dirt beter than a wet lube it works for me.
bernie

Mac11700 · « **Reply #2 on:** September 08, 2006, 10:32:49 AM »

Quote from: Fred M on September 07, 2006, 08:57:51 PM

Some one send me an e-mail stating that he read my web page about keeping the latch shelve dry and clean. He did that and claimed his rifle shot all over the place after he cleaned and dried the shelve..

He went back to what he always did, oiling the latch shelve and accuracy was restored. The next time I take out a Handi I will give it a try. Think about it? It could actually work. The lube will allow the latch to go further forward for a tighter lock up. Specially as you snap the rifle shut. A good application for Moly-Fusion.

Who knows we might be on to something?

Or he could be full of it too

..( no offence dodd3..)

Fred...On my new 25-06 and 280 Rem extractor barrels...I have 95% full engagement already...This is how mine were fitted by NEF when I sent them in.As too moly-fusioning the latch...I wouldn't recommend doing so...You'll note in my review of it I suggest turning the barrel upside down to keep it off the latch shelf...This is for good reason...on mine..it caused pop opens with it on the latch shelf...After I removed it...no more pop opens...I haven't tried any regular oil..but I don't see how lubricating the shelf would make a Handi shoot better...unless it was not fitted correctly in the first place..This is just me therorizing here after having several pop opens before with oil on the latch shelf...and with moly-fusion..and ending the problem by removing it there...All of my barrels lock up tight to begin with..maybe on one with a barrel gap of .004" or larger it might help...Anyone got a a bad lock up who would like to volunteer to try it?

Mac

dodd3 · « **Reply #3 on:** September 08, 2006, 01:06:05 PM »

mac non taken ,i think the silicone spray i use dries in 4 or 5 minutes. i dont think i would like to have the lockup area wet with lube,as you said it could cause the action to pop open.but in saying that every gun is a law unto its self,it just might work for that particular one.
bernie

quickdtoo · « **Reply #4 on:** September 08, 2006, 01:52:47 PM »

I have to agree, it may work for some rifles, they're Handis, what ever works!!

Tim

dw06 · « **Reply #5 on:** September 08, 2006, 02:23:27 PM »

I tried regular oil,same result as Mac pop opens.Cleaned it off good and never did it again.

Paul5388 · « **Reply #6 on:** September 10, 2006, 08:12:15 AM »

I have 5 Handi receivers and I oil the shelf on all of them. After I got full lock up, by removing excess material off the shelf, they never pop open. Prussian Blue can be used to check the amount of lock up that's actually achieved.

My reason for using oil is simply to reduce wear due to the abrasive action of metal to metal. I really fail to see the mechanics behind oil causing the barrel to pop open, unless it's because of the extra space taken up by oil causing an incomplete lock up. Of course, the consumption of space can be minimized by allowing oil to penetrate the porous metal and removing the excess.

A completely dry shelf is going to hasten wearand cause fitting problems much sooner than a lubricated shelf.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #7 on:** September 10, 2006, 10:49:51 AM »

As Paul stated, a rifle with minimal latch engagement might be prone to pop opens with oil on the latch, but I don't think a proper fitted barrel will allow it to pop open just because of the oil, and has been stated, it may make it even more consistent and not wear as fast as Paul said. Whatever the outcome, I'm going to be doing some testing with Tetra on the latch shelf on the next range visit!!

Tim

Fred M · « **Reply #8 on:** September 10, 2006, 12:16:37 PM »

Paul.
I did not know you were using oil on the shelve, and what you say is very logical.
When I got that e-mail, I told the man that this idea was new to me.

I will give this idea a try and find out for myself. Also I have a lot more latch spring compression than the standard spring has. So I doubt the latch will open even with oil on it.

One thing I have noticed that after a lot of shooting the rounded latch will make a concave intent in the soft latch shelve this by it self will prevent the the rifle to open with or without oil. The intent is caused by the generated uplift force since the retaining hinge pin is below the center of bore.

This is one reason I have fitted the latch shelve to match the radius of the latch. This is a very time consuming and finicky job and involves the peening up the forward edge of the shelve in a very precise manner.

Once of course when the hinge seat sets back it destroys the finely fitted latch seat.
A piece of heat treated steel used for the underlug would not break the H&R bank.

Paul5388 · « **Reply #9 on:** September 10, 2006, 04:12:53 PM »

Fred,

I agree, the shelf is pretty soft material! That's another reason for some sort of lubrication.

Maybe I lean toward lubrication as a result of mechanic type vocations. The life of the machine was extended by regular oil changes to ensure good lubrication to all of the moving parts.

nomosendero · « **Reply #10 on:** September 10, 2006, 04:51:02 PM »

Quote from: Paul5388 on September 10, 2006, 04:12:53 PM

Fred,

I agree, the shelf is pretty soft material! That's another reason for some sort of lubrication.

Maybe I lean toward lubrication as a result of mechanic type vocations. The life of the machine was extended by regular oil changes to ensure good lubrication to all of the moving parts.

Yea for a machine or engine, to reduce heat & friction & lubing for those high speed parts. But when I close the action on my Handi's, I usually am not moving quite as fast as the parts of an engine at idle, much less at 7,000 RPM.

Paul5388 · « **Reply #11 on:** September 10, 2006, 05:29:57 PM »

Well, let's try door hinges then. I don't think I've ever operated a door at 7000 rpm, but I do lube them with oil! They sure do open better after a little oil.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #12 on:** September 10, 2006, 06:17:07 PM »

Quote from: Paul5388 on September 10, 2006, 05:29:57 PM

Well, let's try door hinges then. I don't think I've ever operated a door at 7000 rpm, but I do lube them with oil! They sure do open better after a little oil.

But they don't have the lateral pressure being applied to them that the rifles shelf or latch is being subjected too either..

Mac

nomosendero · « **Reply #13 on:** September 10, 2006, 06:27:50 PM »

Quote from: Paul5388 on September 10, 2006, 05:29:57 PM

Well, let's try door hinges then. I don't think I've ever operated a door at 7000 rpm, but I do lube them with oil! They sure do open better after a little oil.

Sorry Paul, I did not realize your gun was squeaking.

Paul5388 · « **Reply #14 on:** September 10, 2006, 06:35:41 PM »

Mac,

I have my grandfather's old H&R single shot 12 gauge. It's pushing 100 years old, but the hinge pin isn't as badly worn as the door hinge pins on my 1995 GC Jeep. The fulcrum of a door in at the end and all the leverage is applied to that point instead of a pivot point (fulcrum) four inches from the end like a Handi. There is also a tremendous amount of gravitational force against the side of a door hinge with none of it helping the door stay closed. I don't know how much a door weighs, but it's far more than a 7 pound Handi! Oil helps minimize wear on metal parts.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #15 on:** September 10, 2006, 06:40:47 PM »

Paul has a good point, I wore the door hinges out on the driver's door of my bought new '88 Cherokee by '95 and that was with lube!

Tim

Fred M · « **Reply #16 on:** September 10, 2006, 07:44:36 PM »

Sam I am, you may like green eggs and ham, Sam I am.

So far we only have two positive replies, one from my mistery man who has already been discredided and Paul who has been given a hard time.

If a drop of oil is going to ruin your Handi you better trade it in for something more useful.

I am going to the range in the morning and try it. I don't think I ruin my 6x47 and have to trade it in. But------?

At this point I could easy do without the 6x47, since I bought a brand new Winchester Low Wall model 1885 in 17 HMR. This rifle will do most of my future gopher hunting, me thinks.

According to Varmint Al the 17HMR is a great cartridge for small varmints.

http://www.varmintal.com/17hmr.htm

Paul5388 · « **Reply #17 on:** September 10, 2006, 08:11:35 PM »

Fred,

It seems as though we've done damage to the sacred calf! Of course, it doesn't bother me, because I'll continue to oil the shelf on my Handis that never pop open when I don't want them to!

BTW, I use a little MoS2 as a dry spray on the hinge pins too, if I don't use a moly grease on them.

hellacatcher · « **Reply #18 on:** September 11, 2006, 12:56:34 AM »

Why is thid idea being po poed when it will take nothing to try it and much may be gained? I also have a older topper that has never given eny trouble being locked up and shows no wear with a little amout of lite gun oil. I have also litle oiled my other H&R's and handils. I will admit to having other problems with some but not all of them but never a lock up problem. At least try it or not be so negative.

tscott · « **Reply #19 on:** September 11, 2006, 02:00:02 AM »

I began using CVA muzzleloading plug greese years ago, because I could not get the gun open after fire without wacking it on a bench. It solved a number of open close issues, and now that you have stated, the accuracy piece seems logical. Just a hunter with little range time. Only concerned with on a pie plate at 100, but this makes sense!

dodd3 · « **Reply #20 on:** September 11, 2006, 05:22:24 AM »

fred &paul the silicone i use leaves a slick film after it dry's ,what i like about it it does not let dirt stick to it like oil so therefor no grit to muck up the works the spray i use is called selleys ezy glide dont no if you can get it in your part of the world but it is realy good stuf good for door hinges as well lol.
bernie

quickdtoo · « **Reply #21 on:** September 11, 2006, 06:02:20 AM »

There are smilar products here, Elmer's Slide-All, Hornady One-Shot, Superlube Dri-lube and Rem Drilube...

http://www.elmers.com/products/product/product_page.asp?pCode=E450

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=270323

http://www.precisionreloading.com/superlube.htm

http://www.gundogsonline.com/shooting-supplies/gun-cleaning-supplies/remington-drilube-with-teflon.html

Fred M · « **Reply #22 on:** September 11, 2006, 01:46:05 PM »

Here are two 3 shot groups I shot today one is 5/8 the other is 1/2"
One has been shot with dry latch shelve the other with an oiled latch shelve. The rifle is my 6x47 Handi and the distance was 100 yards.

As you can see my 6x47 is shooting well again. Would have liked to shoot some more groups but was too busy breaking in my new 17HMR, which turned out to one heck of a good shooter.

You guys can guess which on was shot with the oiled shelve. I used ordinary 10-30 Motor oil applied with a q-tip. The kind of oil I have in my oil can to lube the door hinges.

nomosendero · « **Reply #23 on:** September 11, 2006, 02:23:26 PM »

You are right, it was an easy guess.

Paul5388 · « **Reply #24 on:** September 11, 2006, 06:52:35 PM »

Fred,

That grin you have on your face in your avatar goes perfectly with your post! I love it!

Fred M · « **Reply #25 on:** September 11, 2006, 08:00:43 PM »

Thanks Paul,
I wasn't aware my mug shot fitted the post, but when I read your post I was sure my mistery e-mail writer was not BS-ing me.

That nice round group really made my day. I it not the smallest group that this rifle ever shot. But it was after all a group that was shot after the second hinge set back which I fixed with Decon Steel again. So it looks like I am good for another 300 rounds.

I use a product called Moly Slide made by NECO, its a Moly grease in a small tube, that I use on the hinge pin and the forearm piece that fits against the frame.

Paul5388 · « **Reply #26 on:** September 12, 2006, 06:23:51 AM »

Fred,

They were very nice groups, but I liked the triangle the best!

I normally use a product called JB Weld for buildup like what you're doing. Years ago, I repaired a Datsun block, with JB Weld (http://jbweld.net/index.php), where it had cut a groove in the deck from a blown head gasket. As far as I know, it never gave any further problems. The owner said they used it all the time on racing go carts. Of course, a block doesn't get any frictional wear, so it's certainly a little different application.

It seems like Tim has used a "liquid" steel product to "glue" in stainless feeler gauge blades for spacers on the hinge pin. Stainless would be a lot more durable and can be used by the thickness needed for the set back..

quickdtoo · « **Reply #27 on:** September 12, 2006, 06:38:58 AM »

Paul, I used regular JB Weld to attach the shim, I haven't shot that barrel since I orginally took it to the range, will have to shoot it some more to see if it's going to be a problem over time. MattParliament used JB Stik but he hasn't mentioned how it's holding up.

Tim

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/index.php/topic,88528.msg534874.html#msg534874

Update 1/23/2008..I've JB Welded several shims since this was posted, the original 270 UC is still working fine after several range trips with near max loads of 150gr NPs, the 308, 300WSM and 500mag barrels have all been fitted with JB Welded shims, no failures yet. The 500mag barrel has seen about 150 rounds of loads with 350gr to 700gr bullets loaded from start to max loads.

Paul5388 · « **Reply #28 on:** September 12, 2006, 07:08:30 AM »

Tim,

#1 son likes JB Kwik, but I think the slow cure is probably better.

Now that you mentioned it, I think I remember that you used the shim in the socket and not on the hinge pin itself. Advancing age and memory defects can be the pits!

I don't see any reason a worn hinge pin couldn't be repaired with feeler gauge shim material. Of course, the hinge could probably be removed and rotated to restore the original dimensions too. Hinge rotation was the fix on my Parker shotgun and it feels like a new one now, even though it's over 100 years old.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #29 on:** September 12, 2006, 07:21:05 AM »

I don't know if the hinge pin would wear as much as the soft underlug material, those of mine that have been shot the most, have the bluing worn off the pin, but there's not enough wear for me to measure with my caliper.

Tim