Author Topic: smokless powder in modern in-line muzzleloaders  (Read 2504 times)

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Offline scottjge

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smokless powder in modern in-line muzzleloaders
« on: September 14, 2006, 04:01:53 AM »
I was wondering if anyone has tried AA 5744 in a standard in-line muzzleloader that is not made by Savage ? The reason why I ask is that I was told by a gun dealer that smokeless AA 5744 can be used in any modern in-line muzzleloader. He claims that he uses it all the time. ?????? I don't know, I have been loading ammo for over 30 years and this is the first time that I have run into anyone that does this except for the Savage ML-10 users. I would imagine if one was to weigh his charges and was careful, it could  be done. The hardest thing to determine would be the pressure that was being developed. If you could stay within the pressures that the gun was designed for, it should be safe.

Anyway, I was just wondering if anyone else had heard of such a thing or has had any experience trying it.

Scottjge

Offline Keith Lewis

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Re: smokless powder in modern in-line muzzleloaders
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2006, 05:04:37 AM »
I have thought about a similar situation as I use smokeless charges in my 40-65 Rollingblock. It however is an action that used to be a 7X57 and the barrel is a Badger barrel which is also smokeless capable. I suspect that there are some smokeless slow burning powders that will give similar results to Black but I personally would not consider doing it as it is a real questionable situation to determine the exact pressures involved and with a muzzleloader seating the bullet alone is a big variable. I am sure there are people that do use smokeless in a "modern muzzleloader" and have managed to not blow them up. Again; I have reloaded for over 45 years and I know a little about smokeless powders and I WILL NOT USE SMOKELESS IN ANYTHING THAT IS NOT RATED FOR SMOKELESS BY THE MANUFACTURER! 

I responded to this as a matter of discussion only but do think the consideration of smokeless in any muzzleloader not rated for it by the manufacturer is a really bad thing to consider.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: smokless powder in modern in-line muzzleloaders
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2006, 05:14:23 AM »
I echo Keith's opinion on the question, some may get away with it, but it's certainly not a smart thing to do considering the options.  ;)

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline kudzu

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Re: smokless powder in modern in-line muzzleloaders
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2006, 05:27:18 AM »
I will have to 3'rd keith and quickdtoo.
A very knowledgeable person who is very up on pressures and such MAY get by, but this group being< than 1% of us, so don't do it.
If ya still want to, get ya a Sav.MLII. I did.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: smokless powder in modern in-line muzzleloaders
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2006, 05:48:52 AM »
There are alternatives to a Savage...

http://www.smokelessmuzzleloading.com/
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Keith Lewis

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Re: smokless powder in modern in-line muzzleloaders
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2006, 06:35:59 AM »
As a matter of fact I was considering smokeless and found a used Huntsman with the addition of the smokeless barrel as a possible thing to do later. The fact that Arizona does not allow smokeless for hunting in the muzzleloading seasons pretty much slowed my interest for a while. I may just like the Huntsman as well as my Omega with black or substitutes and never consider the smokeless again (but how could I just remain satisfied with the five muzzleloaders I now have).

Offline DavidKansas

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Re: smokless powder in modern in-line muzzleloaders
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2006, 07:34:57 AM »
 >:( Just what is the intrest in smokeless powder for Muzzle loading , we now have so many new powders that replace the OLD Black Powder . I just can not see a reason to risk your or someone else,s life using a powder that may kill you and someone else. Muzzle loading guns are suppose to use black powder or a approved substute......

Offline kudzu

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Re: smokless powder in modern in-line muzzleloaders
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2006, 08:32:21 AM »
The interest in shooting smokeless out of a muzzleloader goes back as far as man. Wether we talkin gun, cars, girls, or whatever. There's just a natural man thing to want be faster,flatter,bigger,louder,stronger,first,etc . Our centerfires or muzzleloaders, you allways hear"what's the max load for that thing". Very seldom do we hear "how low can I go".
Does 200FPS make a huge differance when you are allready over 3200fps. Probally not, but when sitting around the bench or camp, that 200fps makes "YOU DA MAN".
 
Me included, when the smokeless came out, I had to try.  Now I can shoot a 300 gr. bullet at 2450fps. Sure beats 1800fps. Cleaning is allmost a non-issue with smokeless also.

As long as there are "RED BLOODED MEN", the manufactors of our toys, whatever they may be, will allways be in business with the advertising of bigger, faster, etc. Even tho our shoulders and other body parts suffer, we still strive for them braggin rights.

typed this in 42 seconds, LOL, DM









Offline harvester

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Re: smokless powder in modern in-line muzzleloaders
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2006, 12:36:08 PM »
absolutely not.

i mean, shoot aa 5744 in any muzzleloader designed for smokeless powder, but NOT for barrels designed for BP/BP subs.

seriously.. lyman states that 100 grains of 777 under a 300 grain saboted projectile generates approximately 23,000 psi.

44 grains of 5744 under the same bullet will generate in the neighborhood of 37-39,000 psi.

not the same, is it.

try and reduce it down? not happening.. even if you could get the pressure down, your accuracy would suck.  40 grains is savage's recommended MINIMUM for 5744. and 40 grains shoots about 4"+ groups out of my savage.  42 grains shoots 1.5", and 42.5 gets right around MOA.  43 grains goes back to 2.5-3" in my gun.

the steel in a BP/BP sub barrel IS NOT rated for the pressures of smokeless powder.  i wouldn't do business with the dealer that told you that.

in the bigger picture, savage is not the only player in the game.. you can get smokeless powder barrels for both H&R's and Encores.  personally, i think that the savage is the strongest action, with the most features (dual pillar bedded, dual exhaust ports on the bolt shroud, free floated barrel, recoil lug) but to each his own.  if you try smokeless muzzleloading, be ready to spend some time at the range.  a grain or two makes a difference in the load, sometimes a big difference.  pretty much like reloading for centerfire rifles.  furthermore, you need to consider the heat you generate, and the sabot you use.  no longer do you use whatever sabot is supplied with your bullets.  toss those out and order directly from a reputable sabot make, such as MMP.  and be prepared to try a number of sabots.  a lot of guys get lucky and find loads right off, but some don't.

lastly, i would mention that the benefits of smokeless are cleanliness and reduced recoil.  can you get 2500 fps+ out of your savage?  sure, sometimes as much as 2700 fps.  but those loads come at the cost of high recoil and potentially blown sabots, which is fine if its one out of ten on the bench, but that won't do (for me) for hunting.  realistically, you can comfortably shoot 2200-2400 fps.  and you know what? you can get 2000 from 100 grains of 777 and a 250 grain bullet.  how much more distance does 200-400 fps get you? 25 yards in 6" point blank range, maybe? (175 yards vs. 200)  little less wind drift?

there's only so much you can do with a .45 caliber bullet; speed cannot compensate for everything.

but oh.. it is so sweet to spend a day at the range and put the gun away until season starts, without cleaning it..  ;)

Offline kudzu

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Re: smokless powder in modern in-line muzzleloaders
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2006, 04:08:45 PM »
Harvester,  Well Stated.

Offline S.S.

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Re: smokless powder in modern in-line muzzleloaders
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2006, 05:15:48 AM »
The term "Pipe Bomb" comes to mind in this thread ???
There is good reason for the words "Black Powder only",
Or "Black Only" or "Black powder or Black Powder substitute only"
And my personal Favorite...... "Coffee Served VERY HOT" ..
Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
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Offline scottjge

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Re: smokless powder in modern in-line muzzleloaders
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2006, 02:21:47 PM »
Thanks for all the replys. Believe me guys I agree we you whole heartedly. I was just making a inquirey if anyone else has had this type of experience with a gun dealer before. It was not a local gun dealer, he was from Penn. I looked for a Sidekick here in NY State for three months and could not find one, but due to these forums and my reading a learning I found one in Penn. , so I took aride down and picked up my gun. The gun dealer in my local area have been trying to get the Huntsman since July but with no avail. So I did what I had to do to get me a Sidekick.

I do not know who this gun dealer is, never saw him before in my life, but it didn't take me long to figure out that he didn't know what he was talking about.

I love Black powder and is all I use exclusively. I have tried Clean Shot and  Pyrdex but didn't like either of them. I get better grouping with Black Powder in every gun that I have owned, which are a , Kentucky rifle, TC Scout, Traditions 32 cal Squirrel gun, and a Buck Hunter Pro pistol just to mention some of them. I shoot round balls in the Kentucky, 32cal, and the pistol. I use saboted bullets and maxi balls in the rest. I get great result with BP and Bore Butter as a combination. I do not have a gun that will not shoot a three shot group the size of a quarter at 50 yds. If I do, I start looking for problems in the rifling such as burr's, etc.

Smokeless is not for me in a BP gun !

Thanks for all your oppinions, it has be rewarding.

Offline Biff Mayhem

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Re: smokless powder in modern in-line muzzleloaders
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2006, 04:46:59 PM »
I was wondering if anyone has tried AA 5744 in a standard in-line muzzleloader that is not made by Savage ? The reason why I ask is that I was told by a gun dealer that smokeless AA 5744 can be used in any modern in-line muzzleloader. He claims that he uses it all the time. ???
Scottjge

That dealer should have his guns license to sell revoked.
Keep that ML smokin'
Dave

Offline AndyHass

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Re: smokless powder in modern in-line muzzleloaders
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2006, 09:27:22 AM »
Sounds to me like a stupid gun dealer.

Do people do it?  Yes, but recommending it to another is a whole different issue.

Personally I wouldn't trust a BP barrel with smokeless....if and when I go for it I'd get an after-market, smokeless-designed barrel.

For me, cleanup would be the big improvement.  You can do some advanced things with like .45-.308 sabots in a 1-12" barrel with smokeless (it's being done), but that's getting a little too close to centerfire for me.

Offline Redhawk1

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Re: smokless powder in modern in-line muzzleloaders
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2006, 02:47:58 AM »
I have to agree with a lot of you guys, I don't use or recommend smokeless powder in muzzleloader's. Just my opinion.
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Offline manofthe45

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Re: smokless powder in modern in-line muzzleloaders
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2006, 03:08:56 AM »
I hope nobody tries this beside me when I am at the range.  If they do I hope they have the courtesy not to blow up their gun till I leave.  I do believe Russian Roullete may be a tad bit safer. Spin. Click. Phew  Black powder only please.  Also why am I seeing peolpe say that the encore will handle SP every warning on every T/c be it encore, g-2, or conventional says "BLACKPOWDER ONLY" not shouting they are the ones who put it in bold ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
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Offline Oldsnow

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Re: smokless powder in modern in-line muzzleloaders
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2006, 04:23:46 PM »
This is what Barns thinks about it. Click below and read the excerpt under.
   Will the Expander MZ work in my smokeless-powder muzzleloader?



   http://www.barnesbullets.com/faq_expander_mz.php


Thats all she wrote.

Offline Redhawk1

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Re: smokless powder in modern in-line muzzleloaders
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2006, 01:15:53 AM »
This is what Barns thinks about it. Click below and read the excerpt under.
   Will the Expander MZ work in my smokeless-powder muzzleloader?



   http://www.barnesbullets.com/faq_expander_mz.php




Noticed they only used the Savage 110 ML-II.
If  you're going to make a hole, make it a big one.
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Offline Oldsnow

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Re: smokless powder in modern in-line muzzleloaders
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2006, 05:14:52 AM »
I was wondering if anyone has tried AA 5744 in a standard in-line muzzleloader that is not made by Savage ?

Scottjge

Red hawk I agree smokeless powder (should not) be used in rifles that are not desined for it. The person that started this thread was wondering about it and I thought this could be food for his thought's.
Thats all she wrote.

Offline harvester

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Re: smokless powder in modern in-line muzzleloaders
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2006, 05:54:06 AM »
This is what Barns thinks about it. Click below and read the excerpt under.
   Will the Expander MZ work in my smokeless-powder muzzleloader?



   http://www.barnesbullets.com/faq_expander_mz.php




yes, that FAQ is rather old and a little misleading.. here's another review of what Barnes thinks - pretty outstanding results:

http://www.barnesbullets.com/newsletter_July06.htm

Offline Chuck White

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Re: smokless powder in modern in-line muzzleloaders
« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2006, 03:57:36 AM »
Someone is either going to get seriously injured or killed with the smokeless in a muzzle loader issue!

When someone is loading "say" 100 grains of Pyrodex or other BP substitute in an Encore and they add another 20 grains or so of powder, it's no big deal!
However, when loading metalic cartridges and you are up near max and then add even 2 grains extra, it could spell disaster and someone is going to do that same thing in a muzzleloader, trying to get a little more velocity!

With smokeless, a little makes a big difference!

You guys playing with it please be careful, we like to see you on here, not in the OBIT's.
Chuck White
USAF Retired, Life Member, NRA & NAHC
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just get good with it!

Offline RemingtonMagnum

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Re: smokless powder in modern in-line muzzleloaders
« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2006, 05:35:49 AM »
We already have a huge projectile shooting firearm with smokeless powder it is called a 45/70 Gov. All we are doing it to reinventing the wheel.

Don Jackson Remington Magnum/Ultramag

Offline Biff Mayhem

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Re: smokless powder in modern in-line muzzleloaders
« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2006, 06:53:37 AM »
Someone is either going to get seriously injured or killed with the smokeless in a muzzle loader issue!


That's already happened - several times over!

Anyone who ever considers shooting smokeless in a non-compliant ML bore needs to have his head examined.
Keep that ML smokin'
Dave

Offline harvester

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Re: smokless powder in modern in-line muzzleloaders
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2006, 01:26:32 AM »
Someone is either going to get seriously injured or killed with the smokeless in a muzzle loader issue!

When someone is loading "say" 100 grains of Pyrodex or other BP substitute in an Encore and they add another 20 grains or so of powder, it's no big deal!
However, when loading metalic cartridges and you are up near max and then add even 2 grains extra, it could spell disaster and someone is going to do that same thing in a muzzleloader, trying to get a little more velocity!

With smokeless, a little makes a big difference!

You guys playing with it please be careful, we like to see you on here, not in the OBIT's.

smokeless powder is completely safe in muzzleloaders designed for its usage.  probably safer, considering it is much more stable powder, requiring a higher flash point and its much stronger, much more consistent kernal structure.

i highly doubt there's a muzzleloader made today that doesn't come plastered (be it on the barrel or manual or both) with warnings about using only black powder or black powder subs, such as pyrodex or 777.  similarly, if a gun is rated to use smokeless powder, it is identified as such.

in the savage, the only factory rifle rated for smokeless, they do not recommend a load that exceeds 40,000 psi.  considering that they have proof tested the guns to 128,000 psi (without failure), i'd say they are building a strong gun.

all the same rules apply.  use a witness mark on your rod.  double check your loads. etc.  completely safe.

Offline Chuck White

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Re: smokless powder in modern in-line muzzleloaders
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2006, 07:03:39 AM »
I was wondering if anyone has tried AA 5744 in a standard in-line muzzleloader that is not made by Savage ? The reason why I ask is that I was told by a gun dealer that smokeless AA 5744 can be used in any modern in-line muzzleloader. He claims that he uses it all the time. ?????? I don't know, I have been loading ammo for over 30 years and this is the first time that I have run into anyone that does this except for the Savage ML-10 users. I would imagine if one was to weigh his charges and was careful, it could  be done. The hardest thing to determine would be the pressure that was being developed. If you could stay within the pressures that the gun was designed for, it should be safe.

Anyway, I was just wondering if anyone else had heard of such a thing or has had any experience trying it.

Scottjge
----------------------------------------------------
harvester
READ THE STARTING POST AGAIN !

This thread is not talking about using smokeless in a Savage, or any other ML designed for smokeless!
scottjge is talking about smokeless powder in a regular in-line  NOT made by Savage!
Chuck White
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Don't matter what gun you use,
just get good with it!

Offline harvester

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Re: smokless powder in modern in-line muzzleloaders
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2006, 07:22:26 AM »
i understand what the original question was..

i found it to be answered several posts ago, didn't you?

i was addressing the post i quoted.  maybe i mis-interpreted his comments..

i'm not sure what all the fuss is about.  putting smokeless powder in a barrel that wasn't designed for it is like putting diesel in a gasoline engine.

since we're on the subject - biff, could you please point me in the direction of where i can find the statistics that demonstrate that "people have been hurt or killed" several times over by using smokeless powder in black powder guns?  that sounds a little dubious to me.