Bergara Barrels for the Encore ?

[Davemuzz]

Krochus, the difference between you and I is that I don't have to act smart. However, you are a different story.

Mac, Ummmm.... It's College, not "Collage" 


Sometimes.....I just can't help it!!! 

All done for real now!!

Dave.   

[R.W.Dale]

Krochus, the difference between you and I is that I don't have to act smart. However, you are a different story.



Dave.   

 BOO HOO! Would you like a little Cheese with that WHINE?

 Where is your microwave and digital camera from?

[Mac11700]

Krochus, the difference between you and I is that I don't have to act smart. However, you are a different story.

Mac, Ummmm.... It's College, not "Collage" 


Sometimes.....I just can't help it!!! 

All done for real now!!

Dave.   

Yup..your right...my dyslexia plays havoc with me at time..

Mac

Now guys..let's play nice..or the thread will get locked ok..You don't  really want that to happen...do you ?

Mac

[teddy12b]

[quote

But, nomo got it right about me highjacking the post. Yup. I did that. However, I don't think he or TeddyB can get a real grasp on the issues that I was raising anyway.

[/quote]


Exactly what part of economics am I missing?   The part about how we live in a global economy now?  I understand you want to protect U.S. jobs, so do I.  That's one of the reasons I drive a Chevy and do my best to buy American.  Where do you draw the line though? 

My brother in law has been working for a factory for 10 years making parts for a foreign cars.  Of course some of the money goes back overseas, but also gets to keep his paycheck too and he gets to spend it in the U.S.  The factory, machines, and maintenance are all sitting in the U.S. so there's a pretty signifiacant amount of money that stays in the U.S.  It's not like the old days when foreign cars are made somewhere else and all the money went away and never helped any locally.  Look at the amount of Honda plants going up.  They emply more people to make motorcycles than Harley does, (or at least they did back when I bought a honda shadow years ago after doing some research to make sure I wasn't ruining America). 

Things are not always as they seem I'm not trying to be a wise guy or anything, but you may want to go re-read your econ books.  The professor I had made a point of showing people who are trying make your point that things aren't the way it would seem.  International trade can be a good healthy thing for a nations economy.

[Davemuzz]

Exactly what part of economics am I missing?   The part about how we live in a global economy now?  I understand you want to protect U.S. jobs, so do I.  That's one of the reasons I drive a Chevy and do my best to buy American.  Where do you draw the line though?

Hey, intelligent discussion found here! Yes Teddy....it is a global economy. There is no doubt about that. Black and White isn't quite that easy when it comes to where a product is built anymore. I drive Chevy's as well, except for my 2000 Mustang Convertible. I refuse to buy Honda's or Toyota's as I have seen what happen to Volkswagen first hand. And I can tell you what just happen at the New Stanton Sony Plant. Just Google Sony New Stanton.

But, there are instances where you can draw the line. There are instances where it is black and white. Bergara Barrels is pretty black and white.

Things are not always as they seem I'm not trying to be a wise guy or anything, but you may want to go re-read your econ books.  The professor I had made a point of showing people who are trying make your point that things aren't the way it would seem.  International trade can be a good healthy thing for a nations economy.

I'm glad your brother-in-law has had the opportunity to work the last 10 years producing parts for a foreign producer. I hope he can do this until he retires. (Seriously, I really do hope this). The men and women that worked at V W had this hope as did the Sony workers. Those hopes were quickly dashed. Now, I know this happens with US companies as well. I attribute that to bad management in part, and poor management on the part of unions.

I hear you about economic professor's as well. But always remember, economic professors live in theory. Those guys lust after economic models like a fat kid after ice cream. Yes, international trade is good when management is bad. Look at Kodak. Those dumb a^^ boys thought digital photo's would never take off! Man, talk about sleepin at the switch and arrivin late to the game.

But, Bergara Barrels is a clear line in the sand. That's how I see this one. That's why I scream. But, good to chat with you Teddy. I like good conversation. Thanks.

Dave.

[Keith L]

I speculated in an earlier post and had no reply, so here goes again.

Bergara barrels are a bunch cheaper than TC barrels.  We are told the formulation for the steel is first quality steel, and the workmanship is good.  Spain is not known as a steel producer, so I guess they are importing steel, and they are not a low cost labor country by any means, so that can't be where the cost savings are. I worked for a company that manufactured in Spain, and they did a good job but lost much work due to the cost of doing business there. Even France was cheaper.  And they hired one of the most well known barrel makers to consult on their processes, so that expense has to be applied to each barrel.  So do the duties applied to parts imported into this country.

Does anyone have any real idea where the cost savings are coming from?  My guess is that they are a for profit company.  And the trend in the industry is for aftermarket manufacturers for TC guns to charge more not less.

[Davemuzz]

Kieth,

I dunno. If your saying that labor cost are similar to what they are here in the US, then the next highest cost would be material cost. So, like you, I would guess that the steel is cheap. I mean, what else would it be? Now....just to further speculate on this, if the steel is cheap....is it good cheap steel? (ie: subsidized by the steel makers government) OR is it just cheap steel? (ie: bad cheap steel).

However, I don't want to sound glib on that matter, but I really don't care too much about why. Again, this one is pretty clear.

Dave

[R.W.Dale]

 A very large part of the price difference could be in lack of advertising and promotion over what T?C spends. It would appear that T/C arms spends quite a chunk of $$ on promoting the brand.

[Buckskins & Black Powder]

BTW,

Here is a good American made Stevens 200 in .308 will do at 100 yards. See if your spanish barrel will do better than this:

My spanish x-150 muzzleloader could do better than that when i have the scope on it. And its not shooting a light weight peewee bullet either.

[Keith L]

A very large part of the price difference could be in lack of advertising and promotion over what T?C spends. It would appear that T/C arms spends quite a chunk of $$ on promoting the brand.

That could have a bearing.  The other thing I am wondering is if the arms side of the house supports the contract manufacturing side.  Lots ot times its the opposite, with the brand name product  more of a hobby than a business, but I have no idea at all when it comes to TC.  Its best when both sides are moneymakers.

[R.W.Dale]

A very large part of the price difference could be in lack of advertising and promotion over what T?C spends. It would appear that T/C arms spends quite a chunk of $$ on promoting the brand.

That could have a bearing.  The other thing I am wondering is if the arms side of the house supports the contract manufacturing side.  Lots ot times its the opposite, with the brand name product  more of a hobby than a business, but I have no idea at all when it comes to TC.  Its best when both sides are moneymakers.

 Well Just look ad H&R's barrel prices, essentially the  same product only made in a little less high tech manner but with lots of hand fitting. HERE IN THE USA yet they only cost $70 to $120 each.

 Something don't jive quite right on Encore barrel prices, Heck why would a smooth bore chunk of pipe that is a 12ga barrel cost MORE than a fluted stainless pro-hunter barrel

[nomosendero]

I speculated in an earlier post and had no reply, so here goes again.

Bergara barrels are a bunch cheaper than TC barrels.  We are told the formulation for the steel is first quality steel, and the workmanship is good.  Spain is not known as a steel producer, so I guess they are importing steel, and they are not a low cost labor country by any means, so that can't be where the cost savings are. I worked for a company that manufactured in Spain, and they did a good job but lost much work due to the cost of doing business there. Even France was cheaper.  And they hired one of the most well known barrel makers to consult on their processes, so that expense has to be applied to each barrel.  So do the duties applied to parts imported into this country.

Does anyone have any real idea where the cost savings are coming from?  My guess is that they are a for profit company.  And the trend in the industry is for aftermarket manufacturers for TC guns to charge more not less.

Yes, I have an idea. A big part is a new, modernized plant. They make full use of Robotics & Computerized Lathe Machines. It's called being efficient & smart. Shoot even a Northern US plant can be profitable & competetive if it is efficient enough!!  This should relieve some stress about Spain getting ALL the money. The Germanic countries probably supplied alot of these machines, truly an International endeavor! 

Oh, & the steel is not cheap either! They use 4140 blued steel barrels or 416R Stainless tubes.

Why not go the the Bergara site & let Mr. Ed Shilen explain it to you. Click on the video plant tour & enjoy!!   

www.bergarabarrels.com
 

[Mac11700]

I speculated in an earlier post and had no reply, so here goes again.

Bergara barrels are a bunch cheaper than TC barrels.  We are told the formulation for the steel is first quality steel, and the workmanship is good.  Spain is not known as a steel producer, so I guess they are importing steel, and they are not a low cost labor country by any means, so that can't be where the cost savings are. I worked for a company that manufactured in Spain, and they did a good job but lost much work due to the cost of doing business there. Even France was cheaper.  And they hired one of the most well known barrel makers to consult on their processes, so that expense has to be applied to each barrel.  So do the duties applied to parts imported into this country.

Does anyone have any real idea where the cost savings are coming from?  My guess is that they are a for profit company.  And the trend in the industry is for aftermarket manufacturers for TC guns to charge more not less.

Yes, I have an idea. A big part is a new, modernized plant. They make full use of Robotics & Computerized Lathe Machines. It's called being efficient & smart. Shoot even a Northern US plant can be profitable & competetive if it is efficient enough!!  This should relieve some stress about Spain getting ALL the money. The Germanic countries probably supplied alot of these machines, truly an International endeavor! 

Oh, & the steel is not cheap either! They use 4140 blued steel barrels or 416R Stainless tubes.

Why not go the the Bergara site & let Mr. Ed Shilen explain it to you. Click on the video plant tour & enjoy!!   

www.bergarabarrels.com
 

Thanks Rod...you save me the trouble...

Dave... Tell me why you draw the line in the sand with the Bergara Barrels.?..Since you yourself subsidize various foreign companies of everyday commodities with your purchases...With all of your screaming about them..and all your speculating...you have absolutely nothing to back up your gripes about them..except that they are made in Spain...So what...Are you trying to allude that by buying one and saving money in the process is going to bankrupt our nation?...PLEASE...give me a break...Are you alluding that they will damage the US firearms companies...HA HA...that is a joke...CVA/BPI isn't making enough units to do this...at least not for some time  but it really has you worried for some reason..... Why is this...?

Let me tell you what really needs to stop here... What needs to stop is for folks alluding or insinuating that these rifles are made from inferior steel...because they aren't...and to continue to do so..will be cause for this thread to get locked rather quickly..others have gone this route...and I really don't want to go there...wouldn't want to have to take this any further than what I am doing right now...So...if any one has proof that the current Elites are made from inferior steel...prove it by posting your information...Other wise..slamming a product for no valid reason stops now...It isn't right to do this...and it is something that is not tolerated on any forum here at GBO...

Kieth..

Spain is known as a large European steel producer...not as large as the USA of course...but...ranked 14th in the world...http://www.siderex.es/ingles/f_actividades.html...Also...for those who don't know much about how good a quality steel product they make...look up what they have done for a very long time with their swords...Most history buffs can tell you the Toledo swords are some of the most sought after in the world...http://www.galiaemporium.com/mag/en/page-118213.htm

Nomo...your right...http://www.isa.org/InTechTemplate.cfm?Section=Industry_News&template=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=57779

Mac

[Keith L]

OK.  New machines have to be paid for.  One of the largest costs to a production facility is burden cost, which debt service is a major part.  I will assume that the barrels are part of the manufacturing mix in the plant, and don't have to support new machines all by themselves.

[Keith L]

What may be my answer  came to me this morning while I was getting ready to go to work.  I wonder how much it costs TC to defend its self against liability every year, and how much of that cost goes into each of the bits and pieces we buy from them?

I worked for 22 years for a major manufacturer of among other things lawn and garden products.  Our mowers were frequently the center of law suits, to the point where we had a team of experts who did nothing but investigate and defend our stuff against suits.  If we found we were at fault then things were settled quickly, but we decided from the first to fight any that we weren't resposible for.  That was by far the largest group.  I recall things like the two guys who sued us for loosing their fingers when they picked up a running mower by the deck to trim their hedge top.  And the guy who crawled under his running tractor that was on blocks to look at how the deck was working from below and did a self vasectomy.

We also got a piece of the suits from aftermarket parts that failed on the theory that we had deeper pockets.  Often the aftermarket blade makers etc. were so small that they disappeared and came out with a new name and company structure frequently.  We were still there, and although we won most of the time we still had to pay the price to defend ourselves.

So a new player in the barrel market hasn't had the chance yet to build up any legal bills.  And if they are foreign the cost of international legal actions may protect them to a degree.  Liability must be a major cost to anyone who makes firearms.

[encore3006]

Keith,

You maybe on to something. Years ago when I was a student private pilot I looked at the price of a new Cessna 152. The new cost then was $30,000. At the same time, I read an aviation magazine article explaining the cost of insuring new airplanes. Cessna was adding $10,000 to the price for each new 152 to cover future legal related expenses. It was during this same time period that Cessna lost a $200+ million dollar lawsuit to the family of a guy killed when the worn out seat slide latch broke causing the seat to move back during a maneuver causing him to lose control, stall, and crash. The plane was old and the part that broke was worn-out. Was the amount of the lawsuit high? Probably. The point is that lawsuits are inevitable and manufacturers must build in that inevitable cost. Examples are limitless; like the woman who spilled hot coffee in her lap and won a $1 million dollar lawsuit against McDonald's or more recently, the dry cleaning guy in Washington, DC being suited for $50(?) million dollars for losing a pair of pants! Is'nt Bergara marketed in the US by CVA? Were they not involved with some manufacturing flaws with their muzzleloaders a few years back? Perhaps some manufacturers / distributors take on more risk than others...perhaps.

[Mac11700]

The original CVA company has had it's fair share of lawsuits from a failed product..and they went out of business because of it..The new company BPI learned from CVA's past mistakes and has made great strides in improving the quality of their products.The production process used in making the barrels for the Elites & Encores and the materials used in them are some of the best available to them...at one of the most advanced manufacturing plants...anywhere...Cost of the barrels will be less..for a number of reasons...quality isn't one of them..Finishing has a lot to do with the over all price..and 1 thing I have seen on the Encore barrels is the better bluing that comes on them....this can add significantly to the price of the barrels..but most folks just take that for granted now a days with all of the matt finish stainless barrels that is the rage...Supply & demand adds heavily to the cost as well..this is a new company..and they aren't producing near the number of calibers that is available for the Encores yet..so the choices is limited..even though the demand is there..

 One thing for those who dis-like the Bergara barrels to remember is this...In a free market..competition is a good thing..With out it..a monopoly can continue to charge what they want..If there is an cheaper priced alternative available..then the price will eventually come down to reflect it..Right now..they aren't a very strong competitor..but in time they will be..and the price on the Encore barrels will come down some..so..that should be a good thing for those who prefer Encore barrels...Those that are against this happening and start smearing the company needlessly..are doing the dirty work for the monopolies...wither they understand this is what they are doing or not..It's all about the mighty dollar...and it is this way namely because it is eating into their profits..and they don't want that to happen...BPI isn't producing these barrels in conjunction with T/C...they are doing this on their own..therefore T/C isn't making anything on them.....

Bottom line...if you don't like them..don't buy them..If they don't sell...they won't make them...but  right now...they are selling very very well in the calibers offered so far...and the demand  will only increase when new calibers come out..

Mac

[Davemuzz]

Dave... Tell me why you draw the line in the sand with the Bergara Barrels.?..Since you yourself subsidize various foreign companies of everyday commodities with your purchases...With all of your screaming about them..and all your speculating...you have absolutely nothing to back up your gripes about them..except that they are made in Spain...So what...Are you trying to allude that by buying one and saving money in the process is going to bankrupt our nation?...PLEASE...give me a break...Are you alluding that they will damage the US firearms companies...HA HA...that is a joke...CVA/BPI isn't making enough units to do this...at least not for some time  but it really has you worried for some reason..... Why is this...?

Let me tell you what really needs to stop here... What needs to stop is for folks alluding or insinuating that these rifles are made from inferior steel...because they aren't...and to continue to do so..will be cause for this thread to get locked rather quickly..others have gone this route...and I really don't want to go there...wouldn't want to have to take this any further than what I am doing right now...So...if any one has proof that the current Elites are made from inferior steel...prove it by posting your information...Other wise..slamming a product for no valid reason stops now...It isn't right to do this...and it is something that is not tolerated on any forum here at GBO...


Mac

Mac,

What's the matter? Do you have Dyslexia? Didn't you read my response as to why I drew the line on Bergara barrels? I thought my response was clear, unwavering, short, and to the point. I'm not in the habit of repeating myself, so I would suggest you just go back and re-read my previous post. Perhaps have your wife or a friend help you out on that one.

You want to lock the post? Knock yourself out.

I have explained my position as to why I will not buy these barrels. My point is exceptionally clear. I'm even going to say there are probably some forum members that actually agree with me. It is obvious that you do not agree with it.  Your opinion is just that and nothing more. If the "big guy" steps in and tells me to shut up, then that's what I will have to do, because he owns the place, you don't!

Mac, I worked as a CPA for 25 years. I consulted with many small and medium size business with domestic and foreign operations concerning US and foreign tax laws. I've watched what foreign governments have done to small US companies while our congress has done nothing. I've lived in SW Pa. and watched V.W. move in and out. I'm currently watching Sony. Jobs came.....and now they are going. Sony is still here.

So, lock your thread. Scream foul. Say "Dave is saying not nice stuff".

But  look at what Dave is saying! This is obviously clear. And plainly simple. Buy Bergara...send money and jobs to Spain. Buy T\C keep jobs and money in US. Buy T\C Barrel warranty is for life and you can call T\C and they will chat with you about barrel or frame and they will look at and fix either or both. Yeah, try that with your Bergara.

So Mac.....go ahead, throw me off.

Dave.

[R.W.Dale]

Mac,

What's the matter? Do you have Dyslexia? Didn't you read my response as to why I drew the line on Bergara barrels? I thought my response was clear, unwavering, short, and to the point. I'm not in the habit of repeating myself, so I would suggest you just go back and re-read my previous post. Perhaps have your wife or a friend help you out on that one.

You want to lock the post? Knock yourself out.

I have explained my position as to why I will not buy these barrels. My point is exceptionally clear. I'm even going to say there are probably some forum members that actually agree with me. It is obvious that you do not agree with it.  Your opinion is just that and nothing more. If the "big guy" steps in and tells me to shut up, then that's what I will have to do, because he owns the place, you don't!

Mac, I worked as a CPA for 25 years. I consulted with many small and medium size business with domestic and foreign operations concerning US and foreign tax laws. I've watched what foreign governments have done to small US companies while our congress has done nothing. I've lived in SW Pa. and watched V.W. move in and out. I'm currently watching Sony. Jobs came.....and now they are going. Sony is still here.

So, lock your thread. Scream foul. Say "Dave is saying not nice stuff".

But  look at what Dave is saying! This is obviously clear. And plainly simple. Buy Bergara...send money and jobs to Spain. Buy T\C keep jobs and money in US. Buy T\C Barrel warranty is for life and you can call T\C and they will chat with you about barrel or frame and they will look at and fix either or both. Yeah, try that with your Bergara.

So Mac.....go ahead, throw me off.

[Buckskins & Black Powder]

[/quote]

Mac,

What's the matter? Do you have Dyslexia? Didn't you read my response as to why I drew the line on Bergara barrels? I thought my response was clear, unwavering, short, and to the point. I'm not in the habit of repeating myself, so I would suggest you just go back and re-read my previous post. Perhaps have your wife or a friend help you out on that one.

You want to lock the post? Knock yourself out.

I have explained my position as to why I will not buy these barrels. My point is exceptionally clear. I'm even going to say there are probably some forum members that actually agree with me. It is obvious that you do not agree with it.  Your opinion is just that and nothing more. If the "big guy" steps in and tells me to shut up, then that's what I will have to do, because he owns the place, you don't!

Mac, I worked as a CPA for 25 years. I consulted with many small and medium size business with domestic and foreign operations concerning US and foreign tax laws. I've watched what foreign governments have done to small US companies while our congress has done nothing. I've lived in SW Pa. and watched V.W. move in and out. I'm currently watching Sony. Jobs came.....and now they are going. Sony is still here.

So, lock your thread. Scream foul. Say "Dave is saying not nice stuff".

But  look at what Dave is saying! This is obviously clear. And plainly simple. Buy Bergara...send money and jobs to Spain. Buy T\C keep jobs and money in US. Buy T\C Barrel warranty is for life and you can call T\C and they will chat with you about barrel or frame and they will look at and fix either or both. Yeah, try that with your Bergara.

So Mac.....go ahead, throw me off.

Dave.
[/quote]

[nomosendero]

What may be my answer  came to me this morning while I was getting ready to go to work.  I wonder how much it costs TC to defend its self against liability every year, and how much of that cost goes into each of the bits and pieces we buy from them?

I worked for 22 years for a major manufacturer of among other things lawn and garden products.  Our mowers were frequently the center of law suits, to the point where we had a team of experts who did nothing but investigate and defend our stuff against suits.  If we found we were at fault then things were settled quickly, but we decided from the first to fight any that we weren't resposible for.  That was by far the largest group.  I recall things like the two guys who sued us for loosing their fingers when they picked up a running mower by the deck to trim their hedge top.  And the guy who crawled under his running tractor that was on blocks to look at how the deck was working from below and did a self vasectomy.

We also got a piece of the suits from aftermarket parts that failed on the theory that we had deeper pockets.  Often the aftermarket blade makers etc. were so small that they disappeared and came out with a new name and company structure frequently.  We were still there, and although we won most of the time we still had to pay the price to defend ourselves.

So a new player in the barrel market hasn't had the chance yet to build up any legal bills.  And if they are foreign the cost of international legal actions may protect them to a degree.  Liability must be a major cost to anyone who makes firearms.

Yes, that could be a factor, aren't lawyers wonderful !! 

But, as I said before, modernizing a plant can make a big difference too, I have seen it first hand. Alot of my customers have done this & as a result, they did not have to move to Mexico or China. And yes, the equipment has a cost, but not as much as the increased labor you would have without it & all of the shotty labor & redos that would be necessary without it.

So, it can be one or both, we can blame either as long as it works.

BTW, I stopped in a gun shop today after leaving a local steel mill account. The shop had some Bergara TC Encore barrels for $190.00. How 'bout that!

[quickdtoo]

Dave, you're pushing that line again.

Tim

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[Mac11700]

Dave... Tell me why you draw the line in the sand with the Bergara Barrels.?..Since you yourself subsidize various foreign companies of everyday commodities with your purchases...With all of your screaming about them..and all your speculating...you have absolutely nothing to back up your gripes about them..except that they are made in Spain...So what...Are you trying to allude that by buying one and saving money in the process is going to bankrupt our nation?...PLEASE...give me a break...Are you alluding that they will damage the US firearms companies...HA HA...that is a joke...CVA/BPI isn't making enough units to do this...at least not for some time  but it really has you worried for some reason..... Why is this...?

Let me tell you what really needs to stop here... What needs to stop is for folks alluding or insinuating that these rifles are made from inferior steel...because they aren't...and to continue to do so..will be cause for this thread to get locked rather quickly..others have gone this route...and I really don't want to go there...wouldn't want to have to take this any further than what I am doing right now...So...if any one has proof that the current Elites are made from inferior steel...prove it by posting your information...Other wise..slamming a product for no valid reason stops now...It isn't right to do this...and it is something that is not tolerated on any forum here at GBO...


Mac

Mac,

What's the matter? Do you have Dyslexia? Didn't you read my response as to why I drew the line on Bergara barrels? I thought my response was clear, unwavering, short, and to the point. I'm not in the habit of repeating myself, so I would suggest you just go back and re-read my previous post. Perhaps have your wife or a friend help you out on that one.

You want to lock the post? Knock yourself out.

I have explained my position as to why I will not buy these barrels. My point is exceptionally clear. I'm even going to say there are probably some forum members that actually agree with me. It is obvious that you do not agree with it.  Your opinion is just that and nothing more. If the "big guy" steps in and tells me to shut up, then that's what I will have to do, because he owns the place, you don't!

Mac, I worked as a CPA for 25 years. I consulted with many small and medium size business with domestic and foreign operations concerning US and foreign tax laws. I've watched what foreign governments have done to small US companies while our congress has done nothing. I've lived in SW Pa. and watched V.W. move in and out. I'm currently watching Sony. Jobs came.....and now they are going. Sony is still here.

So, lock your thread. Scream foul. Say "Dave is saying not nice stuff".

But  look at what Dave is saying! This is obviously clear. And plainly simple. Buy Bergara...send money and jobs to Spain. Buy T\C keep jobs and money in US. Buy T\C Barrel warranty is for life and you can call T\C and they will chat with you about barrel or frame and they will look at and fix either or both. Yeah, try that with your Bergara.

So Mac.....go ahead, throw me off.

Dave.

Dave...a bit touchy aren't we...

Yes...I have a slight case of dyslexia...but it doesn't effect my ability to see thru the little game your playing here...that I can tell right off...I don't need anyone to read anything for me..nor type for me..and an occasional misspelled word isn't really anything to get your panties in a bunch over..or to take cheap personal pot shots at me...

As to going back and reading your previous post...I'll do even better than that...I'll go back to you very first post on this thread...and show everyone here that you are full of BS...You stated this...remember...?

Please correct me if I am wrong.....but if a barrel is extruded, doesn't that give the metal less strength to withstand higher pressures?

Austin & Halleck make black powder guns so higher pressures are not as significant (and I'm not saying "of no importance") as barrels that shoot smokless powders.

The reason the barrels are less expensive than milled barrels are because they are extruded. Less labor and machine time....ie: cheaper to make.

So, I think I'll take a wait and see approach before I buy and extruded spanish made barrel and put it 6" from my head.

Oh, just read this article on cheap extruded spanish made barrels: http://www.chuckhawks.com/dangerous_muzzleloaders.htm

Dave

Now...where is your big concern for American jobs...or our green backs going to foreign companies...hmmmm? Let's call this for what it is...Your digging up a bunch of BS spouted by Chuck Hawks  who has an individual doing articles for him...with a personal axe to grind against the company...namely Randy Wakeman...and to his dis-credit...has slammed the original CVA...and has unsuccessfully tried to implicate BPI for the same thing...These are not the same barrels that are being used on the Encores or Elites..This is not the same company who produced them...nor are they built in the same plant...It wasn't till Greybeard posted about the foreign automakers in his home state...did you start the flag waving...When the first tactic didn't work...you pull out " Ole Glory "...and try to rally the troops to your side...If jobs & money had been the real reason...you would have said so in the beginning...You telegraphed your mistake for all to see...

You are really reaching to try to equate that buying one of these barrels from a small rifle company...who's total production was just 13,000 units for it's first year...can be linked to the downfall of the American auto industry...and your explanation given to point this out was that Sony & VW was pulling the plug in your area......That is total hogwash...Your trying to rally support by pitting the Spanish gun makers against our American gun makers...and saying we are loosing jobs to them...Tell me...Which rifle manufacture here in the states has lost to CVA...How many jobs in this same industry has gone to them and over seas...? Can you tell me...honestly...can you... Did Winchester close because of them?..Nope...Did Browning sell to them..? Nope...Did Remington sell out to them and lay off staff? The answer is no one in the gun industry has lost their job to BPI...that wasn't out of a job prior to them acquiring CVA..

Now...let's talk about this statement of yours...

If the "big guy" steps in and tells me to shut up, then that's what I will have to do, because he owns the place, you don't!

If I tell you not to break the rules...and you don't listen..I do have some options to use if I choose to...by Managements permission...throwing you off isn't one of them......That is up entirely to GBO management...however...my input to you..and your responses will be considered...in these type cases...and yes...

As I previously told you..I don't really want to lock the thread...but will if need be...BTW...feel free to ask Bill what I can & cannot do...My gut tells me you already know the answer...but just don't like it..

Dave...let me make this crystal clear for you...so there is no mis-understanding..Do  not continue slamming me about any medical condition I have...and do not keep slamming a product you know absolutely nothing about...just because it is made elsewhere...You may feel the gun industry is loosing jobs to Spain by them building Encore barrels there...but in fact just the opposite is true...and they have been building quality guns there much longer than any have here at home...You have a right to be upset with many manufacturing jobs going over seas...and voice your opinion of it in the appropriate forum...but these barrels never were made here in the states...so we haven't lost anything...no one has closed their shop doors and put Americans out of work...What we have gained...is a larger tax base because of it..and due to the increased sales our wildlife has benefited due to the taxes collected...So your argument has no merit to it...as much as your trying to equate that it does...

Mac

[sweetwyominghome]

Regardless of what anyone here thinks of them, my Bergara barrel has shown excellent accuracy potential, and the first 6 loads I tried through it all went sub-MOA for 3 shots at 100 yards. I am not wild about factory TC barrels and doubt I'll own any more Bergaras as I prefer full custom, but the workmanship on this particular Bergara barrel and another that I checked out for someone else was good -- at least the equal of anything TC is currently producing.

Additionally, both chambers were aligned with the axis of the bore, the crowns were concentric and there was actually a leade to be seen.

[Davemuzz]

Dave...let me make this crystal clear for you...so there is no mis-understanding..Do  not continue slamming me about any medical condition I have...and do not keep slamming a product you know absolutely nothing about...just because it is made elsewhere...You may feel the gun industry is loosing jobs to Spain by them building Encore barrels there...but in fact just the opposite is true...

Mac

Mac,

1) I am quite sorry about your medical condition if you in fact have one. And believe me, there is no one who is more serious and apologetic about that issue than me. That statement was made as a "shot" to you to go back and read what I had written. So, if you have Dyslexia, I do apologize for that. You see, 7 years ago I was diagnosed with Multiple Sclerosis. It's a dreaded disease that slowly and methodically takes away your freedom to do what you want to do, when you want to do it. No fishing for sympathies, it just is what it is.

2) I am not continuing to " slam a product I know nothing about"! You my friend, are putting that context on it. You have provided absolutely NO FACTS that would even come close to reasoning why these barrels are less costly than a factory T\C barrel or less costly than ANY US custom T\C barrel maker. Not one fact have you provided! You have accused me of the same. And it's true, I have not given you any facts. HOWEVER, I made the statement ONCE (which would not be a "continuing to slam") AND I have at least proposed a theorem as to why these barrels are less costly.

3) I AM "slamming" the concept of "buy American" when the line is clear. Please tell me exactly where this line IN THIS INSTANCE is not clear!

4) I am done with this conversation. I believe it is "more than" exhausted. My point has been made, clarified, simplified, and pretty much stomped to death. It's a free country. Bergara barrels will be sold. People will  shoot them and report how good some do and bad some do. All of that is fine. Spain will not see one dollar of mine and if my typing diverts one dollar from Spain, back to the US, then all that keyboard wear was worth it....at least to me.

5) At since you are the all powerful OZ, tell me how is it that these other mental giants can have the freedom to attempt to "goad" me or any other forum user into an on line "war" or "fight" by posting their cute little posties, yet they don't seem to get the wrath of Zuess thrown at them? You don't have to answer that, it's more of a rhetorical question.

Dave

[Mac11700]

Dave..Sorry to here about your M.S.  I know what it can do to a person..

If you read what & how I posted it..you will see that I used the word...folks...this is a general term and plural in nature..so I wasn't specifically targeting you directly..but all that was participating in a uncivilized nature..

You said:

You have provided absolutely NO FACTS that would even come close to reasoning why these barrels are less costly than a factory T\C barrel or less costly than ANY US custom T\C barrel maker. Not one fact have you provided! You have accused me of the same.

How can I give you facts on the true cost of each...? I don't own either company..and don't have the total figure for each...You automatically assumed that the differences in price had to do with the quality of the barrel and how they made them...remember...

You gotta figure something has to be quicker in order for them to sell the barrel for less.....'cause they certainly are not gonna lose money or give 'em away.

Dave

You started assuming a-lot...without researching any of it..and continued along this track until you changed course and started in on the buy American tactic...but I will share with you what I do know at large corporations and how some things are done...

While I don't sit in on either companies planning strategy meetings and have input to what the price set points are..nor do I have have access to their long range goals are.....I can tell you that each company has a different pricing strategy...and that each has set their prices according to these goals...and that will influence what we pay for them...each distributor too has these goals..and sets their prices accordingly..as do the dealers themselves...None of us here know what T/C is telling the distributors or the dealers what to sell these for...Nor if they even do...but I know for a absolute fact many companies do this very thing..which is why there is a major difference in price between a on line re-seller and a full blown stocking dealer..It's a tier system that manufacturers have ...The dealer has to order more than just 1 or 2 to get decent price breaks from them..and while he may make a profit..we don't know what he has sell them for to do so..since different dealers have different ratings from the company...and the prices are dictated by the company...or the amount of items they are allocated...RCBS...Leupold...Speer..Browning..and others do this...go and ask your gun dealer if this isn't so...I'm sorry I can't give you concrete information on the true cost of each...but. you are the one who based your assumption on the quality and manufacturing techniques being the cause...and referenced this to the " Cheap Spanish Barrels " link at Chuck Hawks..

While your point now about buying American may have been stomped to death Your reasoning is flawed my friend about " buying American "...since it is next to impossible task to do these days 100%...Making major purchases amounts like for automobiles..is one thing...making a $190 purchase once in a while for a foreign made barrel isn't going to lead to lost American jobs..The whole infrastructure gains by foreign purchases...and not all of the money goes back to foreign soil..Some does...yes...but to think that your not sending money everyday out of this country by buying only cars made here in the US..is a fantasy...because it does..It's all tied together with foreign investments...in almost every purchase we make...What is happening in the auto industry doesn't mirror the gun industry...they are totally separate entities There has always been good quality rifles made outside the US..and folks will continue to buy them...on the flip side... there has always been cheap shoddy imports...that people won't buy...and this is the real reason of this thread...a person was asking for advise and comments from actual owners of these barrels...1 thing that you aren't..and have stated that you never will be...so...why don't we stop the BS..and allow a real discussion about them take place...

Mac

[Buckskins & Black Powder]

Man Dave, If you are going by what randy wakeman says, you got a lot to learn. Listening to him is like listening to toby bridges say a Patch round ball isnt a good killing bullet.

[Davemuzz]

Mac,

Your a "last word" kind of guy. repetitive, but gotta have it. Ok...I acquiesce.

BigBlock455,

GM fellow huh? I like gm's. Always have. Actually, I threw in the R. Wakeman reference as it was the only one that I ever read concerning bad barrels coming from Spain. You know, argument 101....throw every piece of stuff that you have reference to. It's a reference. Nothing more. Actually, I personally think the Chuck Hawks opinions are about as good as ___________-__  you fill in the blank.  He has some stuff that's good, but then he has some opinions, along with Wakeman, that can go out with the daily trash.

Dave.

[Buckskins & Black Powder]

I agree with you on that. Theres some good stuff that makes sense, but a lot of the stuff RW puts down, he can not answer when you ask him.

And yes a fellow GM owner. Well kind of, i just parted out my 71 buick skylark
 Still have my isuzu rodeo though! Thats half GM atleast lol. Powertrain wise.

[nomosendero]

Mac,

Your a "last word" kind of guy. repetitive, but gotta have it. Ok...I acquiesce.

BigBlock455,

GM fellow huh? I like gm's. Always have. Actually, I threw in the R. Wakeman reference as it was the only one that I ever read concerning bad barrels coming from Spain. You know, argument 101....throw every piece of stuff that you have reference to. It's a reference. Nothing more. Actually, I personally think the Chuck Hawks opinions are about as good as ___________-__  you fill in the blank.  He has some stuff that's good, but then he has some opinions, along with Wakeman, that can go out with the daily trash.

Dave.

Ah, the spaghetti principle, just sling it on the wall & hope some of it sticks.  Yes, I have heard of that.

"throw every piece of stuff that you have reference to. It's a reference. Nothing more."     Well now, an irrelevant reference & not a true reference of the actual product discussed. A different company, different barrel making method, different steel, you know, just little stuff like that.

"I threw in the R. Wakeman reference as it was the only one I ever read concerning bad barrels coming from Spain"    Let's look at the logic of that statement.  No doubt some of the best barrels made come out of the US & some cheap/sorry barrels have been made here too! So, if someone in Germany used this same logic & had only read about a cheap US barrel, or if he only had one bad "REFERENCE" of a bad barrel & only talked about it, he may claim that all US barrels are bad, after all, that's what HE is aware of. So then ALL American barrels are judged by one bad barrel. What we have here is no logic at all.

It is a little late in the game, but thanks for admitting in your own words that your argument was baseless & BS.