TC Service - Possible Barrel Problem

[hoop721]

 Long time lurker here with my first question.

A good friend of mine just recently purchased a brand new Encore (20ga shotgun with rifled barrel). The gun groups fine, if you consider 2 foot groups fine (50yards). My Encore with 20ga vent rib will group 5" with winchester rifled slugs at this distance. He has probably shot more than $100 of various sabot slugs (winchester, federal, lightfield, etc.) through it with the same results. The gun was first topped with a red dot, than a 3x9 scope and back to the open sights. Also 3 different people have shot it with similiar results. He called TC and was less than pleased with their attitude. Does anyone know who the best person to talk to would be? He owns quite a few TC products and has no problems with any of them. He wants to ask if there might be something he can do on his end before he ships the gun back to them. Thanks in advance for your help!!

[S & W 642]

I just sent my 7mm-08  pistol barrell back to TC. When I talked to them on the phone and told them About how it was shooting  they were more than happy to take it back and see if they could fix it. He may have just got ahold of somebody having a bad day I would say call back and talk to a manager in the repair dept. and tell them what it is doing. With that being said, I haven't heard back from them on what the solution we be on getting my barrel fixed either hopefully that part will be good.

[hoop721]

Its funny you said you have a problem with your 7mm-08 barrel, because so does he. His son's and a good family friend both have them and they shoot fine. His wont hold a 6" group. He didnt tell them about the pistol barrel problem, just the shotgun. He has a 7mm-08 rifle barrel and a 50cal barrel that both are fine, so that kind of rules out a frame issue. Hopefully they will be able to take care of the problem(s).

[Keith L]

Something else to consider when accessing customer service is your own attitude when you make the contact.  People who are hard to live with on the phone get the minimum necessary service.  Those who are attempting to reach a favorable outcome and willing to calmly discuss problems are likely to get what they want.  Just human nature.

[S & W 642]

KeithL you hit the nail on the head I work in Customer Service in My business and I seem to be more willing to help people when they aren't placing blame, but are truly wanting to find out how to fix the problem. When I called TC I told the guy that I liked the encore which I do and I just explained the problem and He was more than willing to Help even after I told him I had a muzzlebrake put on it by SSK he was still more than willing to check out the barrell and take care of the problem.

[Lawful Larry]

Something else to consider when accessing customer service is your own attitude when you make the contact. 

Hey Keith L,
At what level of temperment should your attitude be after having the same barrel back to the factory for the third time?  It really gets hard to cool your temper when you have put so much time, money and effort into our gun and it still will not work as advertized.  Oh yeah, and after getting your barrel back you get the same answer that the barrel is shooting to MOA when you and several friends have shot that gun and never get better then 3" to 5" groups?

All due respect, but this will test anyones temperment???     

[Keith L]

Do you find the person answering the phone is better and you get what you want when you yell at them?  My guess is that you may feel better for venting but get marginal service, just the minimum necessary.  And if you have been a jerk in the past my guess is that many organizations track that, and when the customer service rep opens the file you are done before you start.

Do your thing, but if you loose your temper, or harass the phone person, or swear, etc. you can't expect much.  In fact many get even by working to spec and not trying to delight you.  You know the rest.

[Lawful Larry]

Do you find the person answering the phone is better and you get what you want when you yell at them?  My guess is that you may feel better for venting but get marginal service, just the minimum necessary.  And if you have been a jerk in the past my guess is that many organizations track that, and when the customer service rep opens the file you are done before you start.

Do your thing, but if you loose your temper, or harass the phone person, or swear, etc. you can't expect much.  In fact many get even by working to spec and not trying to delight you.  You know the rest.

First off is I had a person working for me and that reacts in the way you speak, I would fire them.  If I ran a business, it would be in my interest to help that customer and further good quality service and merchandise. 

Your attitude and remarks are common in todays service work environment and stores.  This is one of the reasons why it seems that eveyone is spring loaded to the pissed off or negative position.  Ever time I go into a store I have to put up with a pin head of a slaes clerk that is more interested in his \ her own personal problems and not their store owner's ehile on his dime.  In the old days, if I talked to customers like some of these pinheads, I would have gotten canned in a NY minute. 

Oh yeah, ithas been almost a month since TC got my barrel and I am still waiting.  There excuse is that it is close to hunting season and they are busy.  BS.  I think they either need more techs or their product is not all that it is put up to be and they have more returns then they would like. 

I can tell you that I will never buy another TC product again!!!!!!!!!!

[Davemuzz]

First off is I had a person working for me and that reacts in the way you speak, I would fire them.  If I ran a business, it would be in my interest to help that customer and further good quality service and merchandise. 

Well LL, with what it takes to invest and train in people in a business---any technical business-- firing people "willy nilly" because you perceive they don't treat a customer like gold when a customer is treating them like cow dung....well let's just say that you probably wouldn't be in business long. You would have a bunch of green people working for you, and they wouldn't stay long if they had to be beaten up by customers, then beaten up by the boss on top of that.

Your attitude and remarks are common in todays service work environment and stores.  This is one of the reasons why it seems that eveyone is spring loaded to the pissed off or negative position.  Ever time I go into a store I have to put up with a pin head of a slaes clerk that is more interested in his \ her own personal problems and not their store owner's ehile on his dime.  In the old days, if I talked to customers like some of these pinheads, I would have gotten canned in a NY minute.

My Grandma was never formally educated. But she always said you can catch more (xxxxx) with honey than with (xxxxx). And she was right. So, I look at it like I want to get something here. So, I need to be smarter than the guy on the other side of the phone. Not smarter technically about the product....but have more "people savy" than he does. So, if I treat him\her with courtesy and respect, that will go a very long way in helping me getting what I want.

Oh yeah, ithas been almost a month since TC got my barrel and I am still waiting.  There excuse is that it is close to hunting season and they are busy.  BS.  I think they either need more techs or their product is not all that it is put up to be and they have more returns then they would like. 

Yeah, that's a great idea!!! Add on more techs! Increase the overhead!!! What a business plan!!! Not only more overhead....but more green guys that don't know what they are doing!!!

I can tell you that I will never buy another TC product again!!!!!!!!!!

That's good. It may even be better if you sell the one you have. Then you will not post to the T\C forum about how bad your gun is. However, you could sell it to me, and then I will make it work, and post what a great deal I got on your Encore, and what a tack driver it turned out to be.

Dave.

[Grumulkin]

I have an Encore 30/06 barrel I was having a problem with.  The first shot from a cold barrel was about 2 inches high and then the gun would group 1 to 1˝ inches on subsequent shots at 100 yards.  Most people would probably never even have discovered this tendency.  I sent it to TC and they recrowned the barrel and lapped it.  I didn't think their fix would work but it did.  I now have a 30/06 barrel that does about 1 MOA from the first shot with Barnes Triple Shocks.

I bought a 357 Herrett barrel on eBay and mounted it on my Contender.  I was subsequently unable to open the action.  I sent it to T/C and it was fixed at no charge even though I was not the original owner and they knew that.

I bought a 7mm/08 barrel on eBay that for some reason wasn't tapped for the forearm screws.  I sent it to T/C who fixed it even though I wasn't the original purchaser.

In all of the above cases, there was no shipping or other charge of any kind.  In my opinion, T/C stands behind their products.  If the 20 guage slug barrel is giving your friend a problem and he wants to sell it cheap I'll be happy to buy it and I have no doubt that T/C will make it right for me.

[MOOSE 4 GOD]

TC has had the best service of any manufactor I have ever dealt with. If you call and let them know right of the bat you are a big fan of theirs but you have a little problem they love to here that and will work with you. From the beginning 30 yrs. ago my Hawkens would break ram rods and over the years they sent me 5 that I can remember at no charge and no questions. If you are used to shooting a bolt action these singles are finicky. I have 5 calibers in TC Contenders and they all are great guns. I've hunted with a Savage 110 7MM REM MAG for the past 20 years and when the PRO HUNTER came out I just had to have one. First thing was the extractor was not true so I called TC and found out there are 2 techs assigned to the prohunter rifles only, not the muzzle or shot gun barrels just the rifle barrels. He gave me an authorazation number to right in my book so it would not void my warranty. A little fine sand paper work fixed the problem.


As far as groups after shooting about 100 rounds trying all kinds of powders,col's,primers,volumes of powder, and bullets I finally got a good varmit load. I found that a 115gr. Speer HP at 50 thousandths of the lands will cut holes at 100 yds. and at 150 yds a quarter will cover all 5 shots. Now thats a groundhog to me.

How ever as far as these new long ogive bullets such as Hornady Interbonds 139 and 154 grains, or Speer 160 sbt, and even 150 gr. Combine Tech. I can't seem to get them under 2 in. at 100 yds and looking at the paper they don't want to stabilize. Holes are torn. Powders are IMR'S 4350,4831,7828, H-4831, R-19,22,25. I've seated to the lands and as far back as 50 thousandths off. Charges have been from 5% under a starting load to 5% under max from the bullet Manufactors books.Even tried Large rifle primers as opposed to magnums and I have 4 different brands.

The hollow point has a flat base and just maybe that is what this gun likes. Any I love to load and shoot and the day WILL come when I hit that magic recipe and you guys can bet I'll let you all Know.

NO 2 guns are the same, they are like a woman just when you think you are getting along you mess up and start all over again.

I know this has been long winded but Muzzle Loaders,Pistols, And now Rifle I have a total og 9 TC Products and will continue to buy them Because if you are Pleasant with those people they will go above and beyond to make their product right.

Benny

[Grumulkin]

You don't mention exactly which T/C chambering you're trying to load for but your bullet weights suggest a 7mm Rem. Mag.  If so, I've had good success with CCI 200 large rifle primers, RL-22 and 162 grain Hornady A-Max bullets (about 1 MOA) and Barnes 140 grain XLC XBT bullets (usually less than 1 MOA).

[MOOSE 4 GOD]

Sorry Grumulkin:

 It is a 7MM REM MAG and i've been thinking this thing might like a flat base bullet. I'm telling you with a 115 Speer HP an 68 gr. H4831 it does what I expected out of a TC barrel. All boatails are having problems and tearing paper instead a nice round hole. I thought a heavy Bullet so I purchased 160 gr Speer boat tails and same problem. Groups did get a little smaller with IMR 4831 and cci 200 primers with 154gr Interbonds by Hornady. But the way it shoots the 115 gr. has me puzzled. I have been thinking of trying the accubonds.

Thanks so much for your reply
sorry again about the confussion
Benny

[Keith L]

LL, I think if you went off on the guy on the phone at T/C the way you went off on me in your post we may have found the problem.  Further the vast majority of us have many stories of fine customer service from TC.  You have to be wondering why they aren't helping you. 

My brother told me years ago that if the last five people you met are jerks it is time to look at yourself.  I have found this to be good advice to live by.

I hope you get your Encore problem figured out, and I hope you don't wind up having to do it alone. 

[Redhawk1]

You guys need to buy your Encores where I do. All 5 of mine shoot great. 5 frames and 5 different barrels and not one problem. Two 50 Cal ML's a 45 Cal M/L a 22-250 and a 7mm08. I also sold 2 of my other Encores to a buddy and his wife and both are very accurate.

I am not saying that T/C does not have problems, but I have always found T/C's customer service to be very help full, when I had some problems with my Contenders.

[Lawful Larry]

LL, I think if you went off on the guy on the phone at T/C the way you went off on me in your post we may have found the problem.  Further the vast majority of us have many stories of fine customer service from TC.  You have to be wondering why they aren't helping you. 

My brother told me years ago that if the last five people you met are jerks it is time to look at yourself.  I have found this to be good advice to live by.

I hope you get your Encore problem figured out, and I hope you don't wind up having to do it alone. 

It was your attitude that cranked my clock.  I have never had any problem with the folks at customer service.  My examples were of a general nature with the attitudes of sales clerks and evern customer service of different stores.  TC customer support staff has always been nice on the phone and never gave me any reason to loose my temper.  The problem I have is the way they handle working your gun.  Twice I got my gun back and was told it shot to MOA and this was not even close.  I had other shooters shoot my gun and came up with the same results that I was getting.  It would piss anyone off if you sent your barrel back to them with a problem and they keep telling you that it is not broke.  If it was just me shooting this barrel and not others, I could understand.  All I want is for the barrel to shoot like my contender barrels.  I figure that if I pay good money for a product, I should get my moneys worth.  Is that too much to ask for? 

Grumulkin,
When you sent back those three barrels for fixes, what did you give to the clerk at the post office to send them???  For me, I have paid close to $50. to send my barrel back three times!  I don't call that no cost to me, do you?

Keith L,
Well now here we have a guy, Grumulkin, that had three problems and had to send back his barrrels.  What do you call this situation?  You stated this:

"Further the vast majority of us have many stories of fine customer service from TC.  You have to be wondering why they aren't helping you."

First we have the original poster.  He had a problem.  Then we had Grumukin with his three barrels.  Not to mention those posts on this forum in the past.  I can assure you that there are many more problems out there, but they just don't want to get flamed. 

Now let's take the second part of your statement about customer service.  You state that "the vast majority of us" have many stories.  Fine, but doesn't that prove a point that TC has a problem with putting out a good quality product?  I have many Remington, Winchester, Ruger, and other gun products that I have neve sent back for product repair.  All I am saying is that I think I made a mistake when I purchased my Encore.  And I base that conclusion on my experiences with my barrels and those I have read about in this and other forums. 

Now that last part of your statement about selling my Encore.  Would you have me sell a problem gun to an unsuspecting guy that is paying good money for what he thinks is a good product???   Are you a used car saleman by any chance?     

[Davemuzz]

LL,

No, I made the statement to sell me the broken Encore. I am aware that your are having an issure with it.  So, no surprises here. Tell me what you want.

Dave.

[Keith L]

Have a nice life Larry.

[hoop721]

Sorry I started this war of words.

I ended up calling TC myself, just to see what info I could get. I talked to the woman who answered the phone about the barrel problem, and she said it sounded like it was a ballistics problem and would transfer me to a tech. I spoke with a gentleman at length about the problem. He told me that 2 of the slugs that my friend has tried were rated #1 & #2 in their tests. He also said that they are starting to get backed up (3 weeks plus turn around) due to the fact that everyone has waited till the last minute. He did state that to make sure to include in the letter that this was a brand new gun, and that may speed up the process. The barrels were shipped back last friday.

I wasnt there when he called TC, so I'm not sure if he had sounded irrate, if because he called at the end of the day everyone was ready to go home, or what. Like I said he has always been a firm believer in TC products (he is the reason myself and many of our other friends are TC owners), but having issues with the last 2 purchases has got him thinking about never buying another. After all I have seen, on this forum & others, I believe TC will take care of him. I'll keep you posted.

[S & W 642]

Well I sent my barrell back and Thompson Center recieved it on Sept 21, and I have talked to them a couple times and I called them today and they said they were sending a new 7mm-08 barrell back to me. With that said, I must say that they do stand behind there product.

[Lawful Larry]

Well I finally got a package back from TC.  They ended up giving me a new barrel.  It came damaged though.  The front sight plastic bead was broken.  Called the company and they are sending me a new front sight. 

Well I took the gun and new barrel to the range and it now groups, but doesn't want to group to the .75" to 1" groups the factory says it performed at the factory.  The best I can get with the different bullets and loads is around 2" to 2.5".  I tried a 150, 165, and a 180 gr. bullets all using IMR4895 powder.  I did get one group 1.5" group with a 180 gr. Sierra bullet with IMR 4895 powder.  Any suggestions on one of the newer powders?  Any ideas on breaking in the barrel?  I have shot about twenty rounds through the barrel so far.

I guess I will have to work to come up with a load that this prima-donna likes.  This gun is testing my patients for sure.   

[Davemuzz]

LL,

The factory says it will group 1" or under WITH FACTORY ammo. They will not even talk to you about handloads.

So, I would suggest that you (1) find out what bullet grain wt. the factory says shoots that will give you the 1" or less group: (2) as much as it will pain you too do so (cause I did this with my 243 and found they were right) buy a box of factory and shoot it!!.

Also: (1) Are you full length sizing your brass or neck sizing? (2) If you drop your cartridge in your chamber, (take the barrel off the frame) does the cartridge rest flush with the back of the barrel?...or is it recessed into the barrel?....or does is protrude out from the barrel?

If you provide me with an answer to the above, I may be able to help.


Dave.

[Lawful Larry]

I full length the cases.  I have shot these rounds in other guns and have had great results.  I have a Remingtom pump and have shot these rounds in my friends Win 70 with good results.    (??)

How important is the length between the rifling and the bullet?  I know it is a problem in some guns.  I load the bullets as per loading manuals. 

I have thought of getting a box of factory and checking this out.  Don't like the idea, but would check it out though.

Sometimes I think I am being too critical.  At least now the gun is grouping and not throwing a round off as in the past.  I would just like to close up the goup.  Any suggestions would be helpful.  I love the idea of the Encore/Contender and the handling, and weight make it a very desireable weapon for the woods.

[Davemuzz]

LL,

I feel your pain on buying a box of factory ammo. When I was having trouble getting good groups with my pro-hunter 243, I called T\C. They told me to shoot either Remington or Winchester 100 grain soft point and I would get MOA at 100 yards. They would not discuss my handloads as they said there were too many variables too talk about.

So, I painfully bot for $20, yeah I did cry... a box of Winchester 100 grain soft points. I shot 'em and I did in fact get MOA (a little under 1") at 100 yards! So, I figured if factory could get this, I was doing something wrong and I just needed to figure out what.

Ok, so if you are full length sizing that could be OK. But....once you size your brass, clean off the lube and make sure your chamber is clean....drop your sized brass into the chamber and tell me (1) if the brass comes out even with the chamber...or (2) does it stick out a little or (3) is the brass "recessed" into the barrel chamber?  This is important. We are measuring headspace here....but not in the same way we measure headspace for out bolt rifles. So....do this and tell me what you get.

IF you can measure this with a dial guage or a set of calipers....that would be even better...if you can't...then you can't.

BTW, your loads will shoot differently in a bolt gun as the bolt lugs will "grab" the brass and hold it tight against the bolt for firing. However, in a break open gun, that can't happen as there are no lugs to grab anything. So, if your brass is slightly recessed into your barrel, you could have an issue with the brass "backing up" during the firing  and helping your accuracy....in the wrong way.

LL...I don't know what kind of bullets you are shooting, and It's difficult for me to recommend to you to shoot a specific brand as I have foud out that different barrels like different bullet\powder combos. For example, I have a T\C Contender with a factory 223 23" barrel that I shoot a 40gr. Nosler with BL-C2 that at 100 yards I can shoot a 5 shot group that you can cover with a quarter. Now, a buddy of mine has a Bullberry 16" 223 barrel that he has been working up loads for. Just yesterday he tried my receipe and got 2" to 3" groups at 100 yards. His Hornady loads with Win 748 were under 1".

But I have been loading either a 70 or an 80 grain Nosler for the 243 with H-414 and it really likes it. Of course, with the Nosler you must measure the chamber OAL, and then set the bullet OAL thirty thousands less than the chamber OAL. The Nosler book says to set it 30 thou to 15 thou less. I have always had good luck with the 30 thou setting.

Anyway.....sorry about the rambling.  Please let me know about your brass when you can.

Dave

[hoop721]

Ok, heres the latest. Both barrels have just come back from TC.

The 20ga barrel has been re-sleeved and has been said to shoot 3/4" groups at 100 yards using 3" Federal Premium Vital-Shok Barnes Expanders. Now its time to get to the range and see how it works. He's going to try some 2 3/4" to see what it will do. If there is a problem with those, he'll get the Federals.

Now as for the 7mm-08 pistol barrel, they said the best they could do is 1 1/4" groups at 50 yards. To me that seems a little odd that the shotgun is that much better than the pistol. I have seen others shoot this configuration (7mm-08 pistol) and have consistent groups about half of that. I believe he said they were using Federal ammo for this too (not sure which variety or which grain). Does anyone have a pet load (factory or homemade) that has been real consistent for them? Or does this grouping sound about average? Thanks for your input.

[Lawful Larry]

LL,

I feel your pain on buying a box of factory ammo. When I was having trouble getting good groups with my pro-hunter 243, I called T\C. They told me to shoot either Remington or Winchester 100 grain soft point and I would get MOA at 100 yards. They would not discuss my handloads as they said there were too many variables too talk about.

So, I painfully bot for $20, yeah I did cry... a box of Winchester 100 grain soft points. I shot 'em and I did in fact get MOA (a little under 1") at 100 yards! So, I figured if factory could get this, I was doing something wrong and I just needed to figure out what.

Ok, so if you are full length sizing that could be OK. But....once you size your brass, clean off the lube and make sure your chamber is clean....drop your sized brass into the chamber and tell me (1) if the brass comes out even with the chamber...or (2) does it stick out a little or (3) is the brass "recessed" into the barrel chamber?  This is important. We are measuring headspace here....but not in the same way we measure headspace for out bolt rifles. So....do this and tell me what you get.

IF you can measure this with a dial guage or a set of calipers....that would be even better...if you can't...then you can't.

BTW, your loads will shoot differently in a bolt gun as the bolt lugs will "grab" the brass and hold it tight against the bolt for firing. However, in a break open gun, that can't happen as there are no lugs to grab anything. So, if your brass is slightly recessed into your barrel, you could have an issue with the brass "backing up" during the firing  and helping your accuracy....in the wrong way.

LL...I don't know what kind of bullets you are shooting, and It's difficult for me to recommend to you to shoot a specific brand as I have foud out that different barrels like different bullet\powder combos. For example, I have a T\C Contender with a factory 223 23" barrel that I shoot a 40gr. Nosler with BL-C2 that at 100 yards I can shoot a 5 shot group that you can cover with a quarter. Now, a buddy of mine has a Bullberry 16" 223 barrel that he has been working up loads for. Just yesterday he tried my receipe and got 2" to 3" groups at 100 yards. His Hornady loads with Win 748 were under 1".

But I have been loading either a 70 or an 80 grain Nosler for the 243 with H-414 and it really likes it. Of course, with the Nosler you must measure the chamber OAL, and then set the bullet OAL thirty thousands less than the chamber OAL. The Nosler book says to set it 30 thou to 15 thou less. I have always had good luck with the 30 thou setting.

Anyway.....sorry about the rambling.  Please let me know about your brass when you can.

Dave

I haven't blown you off, I have been really busy with family matters.  I did go out and buy a box of factory and will take it to the range as soon as I can.  Will let you know how it worked.  I want to get this done soon, what with deer season coming up and all.     

[S & W 642]

I got my 7mm-08 pistol barrell back from TC. They sent me a new barrell I shot it with Rem Factory ammo 140 grain psp. It shot alot better I can get it to about a 2 inch group at 50 yards.  In the black part of the bullseye. I feel now that I need to practice more and I am going to try some other ammo. so I am very happy with this pistol I think with some more time on the range that I can get alot closer groups. I bought Federal and I am going to get some Hornady bullets and try them. TC did recommend that I try to stick around the 140 grian bullets.

[Davemuzz]

I haven't blown you off, I have been really busy with family matters.  I did go out and buy a box of factory and will take it to the range as soon as I can.  Will let you know how it worked.  I want to get this done soon, what with deer season coming up and all.     

Hey, no problem. I understand that life sometimes gets in the way of the important stuff. Let me know the outcome of the factory's when you get a chance.

Dave

[Lawful Larry]

Hey Dave,
I had the duty the other day at the range as Range Officer and took the .30-06 barrel with me.  I had a mix of home reloads and the factory (Winchester 150gr Silvertips).  I could find no real difference between my reloads and the factory stuff.  I did find some interesting stuff on the groups. 

The groups were starting to act as in the past, two almost touching and one 4 to 5" off.  I lowered my head and started to cry.  Here was a new barrel and it was still acting the same as the other one.  After collecting myself and snapping out of it I remembered the subject of the forearm screws.  I remembered that someone stated that the order of tightening was important.  So I tightened up the back screw first and then the front.  I got no change.  I then tightened up the front first and then the back.  The group pattern changed.  The groups started to look normal.  I even got one group under .75".  This means I have a problem with the damned forearm. 

Have others had this problem also?  I thought I had freed up the barrel and floated it.  I just wish I didn't have to put up with this silliness of screw crap.  I al just so tired of dealing with this gun.

I am really not happy with this Encore and will probably just get rid of it and move on.  I guess I am getting too old and tired of dealling with these problems.  Life needs to stay as simple as possible when we reach the golden years. 

Thanks for listening to my rants and raves.  Good hunting.         

[Davemuzz]

LL,

The first thing I did to my pro-hunter was float the forarm. The second thing I did was get a trigger job. There's an article in this months Field and Stream....or maybe it's Outdoor Life...about the Encore. There two complaints were forarm float and trigger pull.

In fact, the guy who was testing the gun wouldn't put any pressure on the stock when he shot it from a bench. He knew this would throw the group off! He said if you buy one...float the forearm.

But, once this is done, they are excellent rifles. I just don't think you can beat the caliber change for the cost and the quality (yeah, yeah....I know) for the overall price. Once you invest in the frame and get the trigger job, where else can you get another caliber for $200 to $250? (Well, don't count my Stevens 200 'cause they aren't as pretty...darn accurate....but an ugly sister just the same)

Dave.