Barrel leading and nitro lubes

[ND Sharpshooter]

Every now and then it seems that my mind has a heretical thought---heretical, at least, from the BP traditionalists' POVs.  I have not yet tried this because it just now occurred to me when reading the posts about choked barrels and leading.  We use BPCR lubes that are designed to keep the fouling soft.  Do we need to use this sort of lube if we wipe after every shot?  Before you blast me to bits let me add that I've been shooting cast bullets with nitro powders for 30+ years and with BP in front stuffers for at least 30 years starting with cap and ball revolvers and single shot pistols and graduating to muzzle loading rifles.  About a year ago I bought my first BPC rifle.  I shot it with nitro powders and LBT Blue lube as well as Pyrodex, Triple Seven, Jim Shockey Gold, and that Cowboy Action fluffy stuff the name of which escapes me at the moment.  Never had any leading problems.  Got some SPG and an e-mentor's home made lube when I started loading BP and got no leading with them either til I started loading 20 to 1 and similar blends of cb's.  Now get leading with BP loads on a regular basis with 20, 25, and 30 to 1 alloys.  Did a small run of 17 to 19 BHN LBT 345's a couple months ago.  Went up to 1214 fps for 10 shot average and 1 X 2 5/8 inch groups at 100 yards with no leading using SPG and wiping between shots.   Anyway, now I wonder if we can do 1200 plus fps with soft alloys and nitro lubes so they expand a bit for hunting.  Whatcha think, ladies and gents?

[Nobade]

Coupla thoughts. One, card wads under the bullet really help both leading and accuracy with soft bullets. Another is, yeah, 50-50 alox/beeswax works fine if you wipe between shots. In fact, even those strange copper covered bullets work fine with BP if you wipe between shots. BTW, what bullet mould are you using? I have problems with BP and bullets designed for nitro powder since they don't carry much lube. The BP specific bullets work a lot better.

[Ray Newman]

One thing about the use of BP & full metal patched (AKA jacketed) bullets.

If you don't scrupulously clean the bore of all copper residue, the clean it to remove all BP residue, you run the risk of rust & pitting occurring under the copper fouling.

A few months back on the Shiloh board, there was a thread about a Shiloh barrel that was ruined by improper cleaning after shooting BP & full metal patched bullets.

[ND Sharpshooter]

Nobade and Ray,

Thank you both. Had a very nice lube star at the muzzle and have never put a jacketed bullet through it.  Been using .030 fiber wads; maybe I should use .060's?  This session was with an LBT mould.  Saeco's 740 did the same thing and with that cb the slivers of leading were a bit longer.  Lube is SPG.  Are poly wads more effective than fiber for preventing leading? 

[ShortStake]

ND Sharpshooter,

Get the "Lead Out" could very well be a double-entendre!

Our esteemed BPCR shooter and author,, Mike Venturino, has intimated in his very thorough and worthwhile writings that he uses Lead Removal clothes cut into round or square patches to get the lead out of barrels.  Believe they are available from Birchwood Casey and Hoppes.

Carrying this thought process another step, perhaps you can make up some wads from the Lead Removal cloth and place them immediately below your cast bullets!  Reckon that would work up there on the Northern Border?

Let us know.  Wondering (not physically) minds would like to know the results.


From down here on the "other" Border...........   

[ND Sharpshooter]

Hi Short Stake,

Got some of that cloth---must be 20 years old---and it work just fine.  Seems like a person can clean and clean and clean and then use a swatch of that stuff and it turns black--or picks up some more "stuff".  You're trying to talk me into buying a wad punch aren't you?    It's worth a try and I'll let you know what happens.  It may tke a while as my hunting buddy and I found the mother lode of Sharptailed Grouse today  while mudding around the countryside  We got 4 this evening and his Labrador pup learned about retrieving sharpies!  THAT alone was worth the mudding around.    Should have mentioned this before when you suggested space between the case mouth and leade:  There's always a bit of a lube ring on the case mouth so I know you're correct about the cases being short for the chamber.  They are right for the SAAMI Specs tho.  And I have not trimmed them yet.  Stay dry!

[dodd3]

ND Sharpshooter i got a little leading with spg changed to rooster red black powder 7 lube no more leading even when uesing the outher powder nitro and 1650fps with gas check and 20 to 1 lead tin mix
got the lube from track of the wolf.
bernie
p://www.trackofthewolf.com

[ND Sharpshooter]

dodd3,

Thanks for the info.  Guess this means I get to experiment even more!  I wonder what the difference is in those two lubes.  Any ideas?

[dodd3]

ND Sharpshooter the rooster red lube has a high melt piont 200f its chepper than spg.
bernie

[sqball]

 NDSharpshooter,

  I have used Javelina in BP cartridges and as far as I can tell there's no Leading or lack of accuracy. The one thing I have found is that you must have enough lube on your bullet if you wipe between shots. Most bullets made for the "other" powder will sometimes Lead your barrel just due to the fact there's not enough lube on them.

  This is pure supposition on my part but I think when you wipe a BP barrel between shots you are making the barrel virtually clean. Bullets designed for smokeless powder depend on succeeding shots to lay down a layer of lube. Since you don't wipe between shots with that powder they can get away with small/narrow grease grooves. With a wiped BP bore you are laying down an initial layer of lube with every shot, so the lube you use is not as important as getting enuf lube so it doesn't run out before the bullet leaves the barrel.

  Lube is kind of a tricky thing in BP shooting. You can have to much, so a point is reached where accuracy is affected. My .45/70 using the Lyman 457125 bullet will shoot it's best with two of the grease grooves left empty.

  And of course what lube you use will affect accuracy to. You could probably spend the rest of your life just playing with different lubes tor see which one works in a particular rifle. My favorite is SPG since it seems to work well in any gun I've tried it in.

[Lead pot]

This lead thing can be a puzzling at times. At times using the same loading components and procedures, you don't have a problem then you do
There a few things I found that causes leading in my rifles sometimes.
By the way there is some lead in every rifle if you see it or not, it might be hidden under the black fouling and comes out with the first patch.
This is what I found, and I did this on purpose to see if that's the reason for the lead in my barrel.
Short cases I found and that is easy to check I found causes it.
Take a .45-2.1 case full length size it  then trim it to 2.980 like some do that case can be as short as 1.95" depending how liberal your chamber is when the case walls get pushed back out fitting the chamber.
Well there will be a gap between the case mouth and the chamber when that case expands and the bullet will shave some lead when it obtrudes and gets swaged back down to were it fits the bore again, and if the wad does not carry it through as it passes and the hot soft lead stays behind and gets ironed in with the next shot.
I have no way of proving my thought, just a guess.
By not having good case prep while loading might give a problem.
By not having the case mouth chamfered and properly expanded while you seat the bullet you will shave lead off the side of the bullet and it will get trapped by the lube on the bullet side wall and get ironed on as the bullet passes through the bore.
Dry fouling will lead the bore.
To hard and small bullet diameter and improper wad diameter were the hot gas will cut the bullet side wall will lead the bore.
I have loaded PP and GG bullets not using any wads and they shot good with out any lead problems.

This is just my thought on this.

Kurt