Author Topic: two stage trigger? (Read 1150 times)

Rangeball · « **on:** September 22, 2006, 11:04:36 AM »

Hey guys. I've posted a bit on the H&R shotgun forum as I have a 12g Ultra slug hunter, but have been looking things over here hoping someone would know.

Is there any way to convert the H&R trigger from a single stage to a two stage? Perhaps someone out there offering a drop in two stage option?

I really like the two stage design. I sent my ultra back to H&R when I bought it and they worked the trigger, now it's clean and crisp, I just prefer the two stage, less target panic.

Also, what's the difference between the Ultra and Handi-rifles? Stock and forearm?

Any input is greatly appreciated

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** September 22, 2006, 12:25:29 PM »

Welcome aboard!

No one makes an aftermarket trigger of any kind for NEF/H&Rs that I'm aware of. A lot of us do our own triggers, see the FAQ and Help sticky for more info on triggers and a whole lot more.

The main difference in the current production Ultras and Handi is just the stock, older Ultras had much nicer finished barrels instead of the coarse finish they have now. Some special/limited edition Handis have had resin laminated stocks, but none that I've ever seen were checkered, that's another difference, all Ultras are checkered as far as I know.

Tim

Rangeball · « **Reply #2 on:** September 24, 2006, 12:33:48 PM »

Thanks for the reply and the welcome

I'm plenty happy with the H&R reworked trigger on my ultra, just hoping to find a two stage trigger for it to replace the single stage.

Thanks again.

Fred M · « **Reply #3 on:** September 24, 2006, 01:41:13 PM »

Rangeball.
You will be hoping and waiting for ever for a single stage trigger on a Handi.

To install a single stage trigger the whole system would have to be reworked, because of the transfer bar. If you increased the sear hight the transfer bar action would have to be changed. You would also need a complete new hammer design.

Very few hunting rifles have two stage triggers, they are simply too slow and too finicky when adjusted to a minimal second stage let off, same as set set triggers.

A good single stage trigger with no back lash on a hunting rifle is what you want. Alas the Handi operates with a back lash to keep the tranferbar in place.
Now that is a stupid design engineered by lawyers.

With a little practice and the use of you second joint on your trigger finger, the Handi trigger is quite useable.

myarmor · « **Reply #4 on:** September 25, 2006, 02:48:56 AM »

Quote from: Fred M on September 24, 2006, 01:41:13 PM

....A good single stage trigger with no back lash on a hunting rifle is what you want. Alas the Handi operates with a back lash to keep the tranferbar in place.
Now that is a stupid design engineered by lawyers.

With a little practice and the use of you second joint on your trigger finger, the Handi trigger is quite useable.

Well put. The transfer bar design is a very safe one, and works well for the main purpose of what these rifles are designed for as "sporting" firearms. I recently acuired an older 76 Handi and I have to say I like the older design better. But the newer one works.

-Aaron

Fred M · « **Reply #5 on:** September 25, 2006, 11:10:11 AM »

Myamor
Quote.
The transfer bar design is a very safe one, and works well for the main purpose of what these rifles are designed for as "sporting" firearms.

Their are millions of break open SPORTING FIREARMS, that don't have transfer bars such as O/U, SxS, Single shots, they are just as save as the user. The Handi is no exception. The transfer bar on the Handi is an ignoramus. Besides it is flimsy and it takes a continious beating subject to breakage and malfunctions and miss fires.

I never questioned that the tranfer bar works, what I question is its purpose.
Is the purpose to prevent a Yahoo who walks around with the hammer cocked, with no safty on, to accidently have his gun go off? Yah that is it, eh?

By its intented usage makes it also very difficult to get a very light trigger like 24oz or less. I know the factory wont do it. Though it can be done if you know how to do it yourself. My two Handi's both have 24oz triggers and function with the tranfer bar.

The origional H&R action and I have one with the rebounding hammer and stop is a much better design, simpler and just as safe as the man behind it.

I for one do not consider the transfer bar as a safer design. You can't make anything idiot proof. All you have to do is look at a Ruger #1, #3, Win Low Wall, Win High wall, all Win and Marlin leaver guns and a whole lot of other exposed hammer guns.

I hope you are not trying to tell the readers here that they are not as save and not designed for sporting firearms use.

myarmor · « **Reply #6 on:** September 25, 2006, 10:30:49 PM »

Quote from: Fred M on September 25, 2006, 11:10:11 AM

...I hope you are not trying to tell the readers here that they are not as save and not designed for sporting firearms use.

Nope, not at all. I agree with everything you said. The transfer bar design isn't my favorite, nor do I believe it to be the best for a single shot. I have had 1 transfer bar break on my Ultra receiver before, so I know they can be fragile.

Hammerspur · « **Reply #7 on:** September 26, 2006, 01:40:34 AM »

Quote from: Fred M on September 25, 2006, 11:10:11 AM

The origional H&R action and I have one with the rebounding hammer and stop is a much better design, simpler and just as safe as the man behind it.

I'm with you 100% on that Fred, and the rebounding hammer had the added benefit of wearing a low spurred hammer as well.
Maybe the tall one was another 'safety' measure to make it easier to release the hammer without dropping it if wearing gloves or when fingers are cold... man if someone needs that kind of help I sure hope they aren't in the woods when I'm hunting, WHEW!

Fred M · « **Reply #8 on:** September 26, 2006, 04:33:02 AM »

Myarmor and Hammerspur.
Thanks for the reply.

The basic concept of the break open rifle is sound and super, and the H&R Handi concept is a fine excample. But if they keep on making scrap, nobody will buy them.

It only takes very few and minor changes to make it a super accurate rifle, even if you have to live with the transfer bar, for which there is no reason. It only adds to complecity and expense and a lousy trigger. There is no excuse with todays quality machinery and material to use srcap iron parts.

A good piece of steel is just as easy to machine a poor one. A good fitting breech, a stress relieved barrel. a hardened underlug, a 1/16" larger hinge pin and a few stronger and better coil and hammer springs would make this rifle the envy of most.

But don't hold you breath it won't happen.

Rangeball · « **Reply #9 on:** September 26, 2006, 06:06:36 AM »

Thanks for the comments all

Quote from: Fred M on September 24, 2006, 01:41:13 PM

Rangeball.
You will be hoping and waiting for ever for a single stage trigger on a Handi.

To install a single stage trigger the whole system would have to be reworked, because of the transfer bar. If you increased the sear hight the transfer bar action would have to be changed. You would also need a complete new hammer design.

Very few hunting rifles have two stage triggers, they are simply too slow and too finicky when adjusted to a minimal second stage let off, same as set set triggers.

A good single stage trigger with no back lash on a hunting rifle is what you want. Alas the Handi operates with a back lash to keep the tranferbar in place.
Now that is a stupid design engineered by lawyers.

With a little practice and the use of you second joint on your trigger finger, the Handi trigger is quite useable.

Fred, I'm probably lucky that I've never fired a true quality trigger, either single or double. I did send my trigger back to H&R, and it is much lighter and more crisp, I think it's now around 3-4#s, but I'll have to gauge it this afternoon when my brothers order comes in, since he just bought one

I had been using the tip of my trigger finger. I just tried the second joint, and felt really good. I'll have to give this a go at the range soon.

Fred M · « **Reply #10 on:** September 26, 2006, 06:28:54 AM »

Rangeball.
Using the first ot the second joint of your trigger finger will assure a complete trigger follow trough, which is needed to keep the tranfer bar under the hammer.

This is particular important with a very light trigger like mine at 24oz.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #11 on:** September 26, 2006, 07:20:42 AM »

Quote

But don't hold you breath it won't happen

.

Unless you do it yourself right now

You can bet there will be some design changes happen with them...At least what I've been told...Don't know what and when...but..I suspect some better parts going in ...and maybe some new calibers and barrel options?

? They have already improved the lock up on the new extractor barrels..and the trigger pulls are some of the best I have seen come out of the plant...

Fred...Even the new Marlins all have the lawyer proof cross bolt safety's on them...but at least they have a way of locking them out for now...and the transfer bar are for those unintintional discharges where the gun gets knocked over...or if a person somehows trips as they are getting ready to fire...These are used as shotguns too and the same goes for them as well...You would be suprised to see just how many idiots do indeed walk around with the gun full cocked...I have witnessed this on occassion...it's down right scary..

. While they may not have benchrest gun components in them...they do give exceptional accuracy for the amount of money they do cost.....and that should tell anyone wanting benchrest accuracy they have to work at it.. to achieve it...both with their ammo and with their rifle...

It would be nice..if there was a good machinist willing to make some after market trigger parts for our little Handi's...I'm quite sure they sould have a nice little cottage industry concern just off the members of this forum...What do you think Fred??? How much do you think it would cost to mill the trigger parts out of some good steel and distrubute them and provide better springs??? Do you think it's doable?

Mac

Fred M · « **Reply #12 on:** September 26, 2006, 03:00:17 PM »

Quote.
How much do you think it would cost to mill the trigger parts out of some good steel and distrubute them and provide better springs??? Do you think it's doable?

1.There are not many parts that need better material.
The Hammer could stand a bit of lowering, but the extension should remain. Remove a bit of weight from the hammer for more speed. All the above can be omitted no big deal.

2.Replace all springs with stronger Chrome silicon springs. These springs will operate with 100x the repetitions without failure or relaxing. ($15.00) only three need replacing.

3. Carbon tool steel for the underlug with a solid front end a 7/16" hinge pin.($20.00? guess)

4. An investment casting latch leaver/button with a machined rack, the pinion is ok as is.($15.00)

5. The plastic trigger guard and hinge piece is ok as is. Since there is a steel option available.

6. The most important and and vital change is in the barrel making. Contour first, then stress relieve before deephole drilling and rifling. That is a major change and I don't know if H&R has suitable equipment for doing it. ($20.00)

In any event the barrels bores have to have the same diameter from one end to the other.

7. better barrel to reciever fitting. 1/2h labor $15.00

Can't remove the transfer bar without completly revamping the action. You and I are stuck with that POS.

All this me thinks is an exersize in futility, amen. besides what do I know how much all this would cost.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #13 on:** September 26, 2006, 03:08:56 PM »

Well, if Marlin wants to keep H&R/NEF alive, it would behoove them to make some improvements to stay competitive, it wouldn't take a lot of investment on their part to make some nice changes, me thinks!! We can always hope!!

Tim

Rangeball · « **Reply #14 on:** September 27, 2006, 05:50:25 AM »

Marlin does listen. In the past few months on another slug forum, we've been discussing the rifling twist rate and it's affect on accuracy with modern higher velocity sabot loads. Barrels with faster twist rates seem to fare better, than the USH with it's 1:35 twist rate, with a wider variety of ammo.

I contacted H&R to ask to speak to their R&D guys. They directed me to Marlin, and the guy there in charge called me and we discussed the issue. After several emailings back and forth, the end result is they have ordered several test barrels in various twists to test. I'd say that's pretty responsive

They marlin guy told me they just brought in someone new to H&R that came from Remington. It would seem that they have interest in keeping H&R alive and improving their offerings. Now might me a great time to put in requests for improvements. In fact, do you want me to email my contact and see if he'd be interested in being linked to a thread I could start here (we'd have to pick which forum to put it on since it should be open to any type of gun they produce) that would have any suggestions or improvements you'd like them to consider?

Let me know.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #15 on:** September 27, 2006, 06:00:28 AM »

That would be great, it's been done before, here's the thread, all 4 pages of it!!

Tim

H&R Survey

Rangeball · « **Reply #16 on:** September 27, 2006, 06:13:53 AM »

Had never seen that, thanks.

Looks like it was well over a year ago. Do you want me to ask again?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #17 on:** September 27, 2006, 06:38:07 AM »

Sure why not!! Start a new thread with a link to the original survey, and ask for new thoughts and additions, the more input, the better! Mac also talked to a Marlin exec last year but I have no way of finding his thread without going thru all of his posts to find it, maybe he has a link to it and will check in.

Tim

Rangeball · « **Reply #18 on:** September 27, 2006, 07:35:45 AM »

Ok, will do. I'll put it in this forum, then post in the other H&R forums here with a link to it so shooters of all types can participate if they want to.

Once it's established, I'll send an email to my contact.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #19 on:** September 27, 2006, 07:55:38 AM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on September 27, 2006, 06:38:07 AM

Sure why not!! Start a new thread with a link to the original survey, and ask for new thoughts and additions, the more input, the better! Mac also talked to a Marlin exec last year but I have no way of finding his thread without going thru all of his posts to find it, maybe he has a link to it and will check in.

Tim

Sorry Quick...I don't have a link to it anymore...

The folks at NEF has always listened...but...they haven't been able to make all the changes we have ask for...They have however improved the triggers...the stripped screws are almost no-existant anymore...the lock-up has been vastly improved to those produce just 2 years ago...Now if they will look at the various twist rates...more new calibers...all the barrel options(ie lenght..contour...twist finish and type..blue vs stainless...machined trigger parts out of better steel...higher quality springs..better fitting stocks (wood to metal fit) good walnut stocks available with or without a cheek piece...and more than just a couple of laminate colors..this will be awsome...I hope that those employees of Marlin/NEF reading this will convey what we want...again...Perhaps they will...Lord knows me and a whole bunch of others have bugged them enough...

The problem is money...to change the bottom line on a already exsisiting profitable rifle will take a whole bunch of convincing of the upper management to allow it to happen...even in limited runs...and since they had some of the calibers that we ask for to be brought back not do to well in sales before...they are real hesitant to offer them again...This is part of the problem...Also....from what I've been told...they base their descision on some type of polling they do on the East Coast( 1 of the reasons of the shorter barrels offered instead of longer barrels)...and this really needs to change...they need to do a better job at asking for imput from sites like this one...on what changes we want
...Being a sponser here doesn't cost an arm and a leg...and it wouldn't hurt 1 bit for them to have a rep on here...infact...it would open up a direct line to the company...much like the rest of the sponsers have here...without all the BS that happened at Marlin/H&R talk...

It won't hurt for them to here it from a-lot of people from different places...So..I can only hope it will make a difference...and perhaps with the influx of new management staff it will...Make a new poll...let's see what transpires...

Mac