380 Self-defense Load

[v-man]

In addition to the good post by Greenriver; even if a handload vs a factory load was the issue in a shooting, any decent attorney could make a case for;
1-The handload  being developed to get maximum accuracy and bullet performance from the gun in order to strike only the immediate threat and minimize the risk of striking something or someone else.
2-The practice of handloading makes practice more affordable therefore enhancing the legal carrier's ability to quickly and safely neutralize the threat.
3-Handloads are eveidnce of a knowledgable, proficient and responsible gunowner.

[gr8ful]

Count me among that crowd who believes there is no such thing as a .380 ACP "self-defense" round.  If I had to trust my life to a .380 I'd just stay home. 

Just curious Dusty, what weapon do you have on your person RIGHT NOW, not in your vehicle, or on your night stand, or where you can run to get it, but on your person.  if that answer is nothing, and you were to enter into mortal combat with my 12 year old armed with my .22 Buck mark  the smart money would be on the kid.  The best defensive weapon is the one you WILL carry everyday, everywhere.  If I knew in advance when and where an attack was going to occur, I would just stay home, but since the down fall of Miss Cleo, I guess I will just have to stay prepared.  A lightweight .380 in your pocket will be 1000 times better than the .45 you left at home because it was too heavy to carry all day.

[gr8ful]

In addition to the good post by Greenriver; even if a handload vs a factory load was the issue in a shooting, any decent attorney could make a case for;
1-The handload  being developed to get maximum accuracy and bullet performance from the gun in order to strike only the immediate threat and minimize the risk of striking something or someone else.
2-The practice of handloading makes practice more affordable therefore enhancing the legal carrier's ability to quickly and safely neutralize the threat.
3-Handloads are eveidnce of a knowledgable, proficient and responsible gunowner.

Criminal court wouldn't be my worry, but rather Civil court where a slick trial lawyer might convince an uninformed jury that the poor victim (CRIMINAL) was killed with a specially loaded round designed to be more lethal than commercial ammunition.  Then the next thing you know the bad guys momma has a new house for all of her pain and suffering.

You and I may know better, but some of the things John Q Public will believe about guns is amazing.

[Cheesehead]

You mean you would, for example, continue attacking me after one or more direct hits from a 380?

Cheese

[coyotejoe]

My wife and I have put 600 rounds through her P3AT. So far only the Blazer FMJ will feed and eject. Never had a gun that jamed as much as this one.

 When I got my kel-tec I went through the basic deburr and polish routine before I ever loaded it. I then tried at least one box of every sort of .380 ammo I could find, which is nearly everything on the market, and I've yet to have my first malfunction. If it comes down to it, yes, I'd rather have my 6" .357 or my 12 ga. pump, but I can't carry those and I do not feel unarmed with the Kel-Tec. I think people who insist on nothing less than a .45 ACP with two spare magazines have just seen too many Bruce Willis movies. I stand a much better chance of being struck by lightning than of stumbling into a crack house shootout.

[Dee]

I personally don't think a 9mm is a good personal defense round, and apparently the U.S. military has finally came to the same realization. However in a fight I certainly hope my opponent is armed with a 380, as I will have a much better chance of winning. I look at calibers, the same way I look at quality pistols and revolvers, and cheap ones.
How much is you life worth? Is it worth $150.00, or is it worth $550.00. Can you stay mentally focused with a 380 in your hand, while facing an opponent whom has a shotgun? If there is not a cover, or time to reach it, WILL YOU stand and fight. Are you willing to take a hit, and keep fighting? Can, and will your opponent. Shooting paper is not the same thing.
I have an uncle whom used to carry the Kel-tec in 32acp, and I asked him why? He said that he would probably never have to use it any way. So I asked; Then why carry at all. He has since changed to a 45acp. Wisdom? Perhaps.
I try never to go to places where there might be a fight. I have been in two, and they are not what most think. Head shots?  These days however, you can go to a mall at Christmas time and get killed by a guy with an AK47 (Omaha yesterday). 380, 9mm? Not me.
Myself and my family are WORTH a little discomfort to carry, and conceal something considerably more decisive than those two. The 9mm has the poorest one shot stopping record in law enforcement history and the 357sig is just a 9mm bullet in a necked down 40 casing. And the theories about the GREAT NEW BULLETS . Gimme a break. If clothing material stop up the hollow point on these or ANY OTHER hollow points, the hydraulics brought on by BODY FLUIDS, "AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN". Seen it! Make mine a REAL 357mag, or 40cal or bigger. That's my "experience" and the reason for my opinion. You don't have to agree with me. It's not required. It truly "is" a personal choice.

[454Puma]

Dee
I can agree with you mostly, I don't carry the 380 ACP often just in those cases where it's that or nothing-very deep concealment! Now 98% of my CCW is with 45ACP or 357 Mag. And when I would think a Bug is needed then the 380 will be it! Cause it's definately better then a pointy stick!:)

[Dee]

You mean you would, for example, continue attacking me after one or more direct hits from a 380?

Cheese

I cannot mention names, but an officer I worked with had a brother in law (also a police officer) whom tried to arrest a gentleman whom had partook of PCP. The gentleman took the officer's baton (not the kind you twirl) away from him, got him down on his back, and proceeded to flail the daylights out of him with it. Testimony of other officers running to his aid stated that every time the officer being flailed pulled the trigger on his FORTY ONE MAGNUM, goose down popped out the back of the goose down vest the gentleman was wearing. Any of all four shots would have been fatal, however the other officers still had to pull the dead man off the officer, to stop the beating.
Any more questions about mind set?
A 380acp I suppose is better than nothing, but just barely. Jeff Cooper once said that being armed with a 25acp gave the carrier the comfort of being armed, and the dis-comfort of knowing should he use it, that it would make the attacker mad. The 380acp is a little better than the 25acp, but the measuring stick is short on these calibers.

[Dee]

In addition to the good post by Greenriver; even if a handload vs a factory load was the issue in a shooting, any decent attorney could make a case for;
1-The handload  being developed to get maximum accuracy and bullet performance from the gun in order to strike only the immediate threat and minimize the risk of striking something or someone else.
2-The practice of handloading makes practice more affordable therefore enhancing the legal carrier's ability to quickly and safely neutralize the threat.
3-Handloads are eveidnce of a knowledgable, proficient and responsible gunowner.

Criminal court wouldn't be my worry, but rather Civil court where a slick trial lawyer might convince an uninformed jury that the poor victim (CRIMINAL) was killed with a specially loaded round designed to be more lethal than commercial ammunition.  Then the next thing you know the bad guys momma has a new house for all of her pain and suffering.

You and I may know better, but some of the things John Q Public will believe about guns is amazing.

Show me case law where this has happened. I don't believe there is any.

[Cheesehead]

So what you are saying is that a 41 magnum is not enough, so that is why the 500 mags are so popular.

Cheese

[Dee]

So what you are saying is that a 41 magnum is not enough, so that is way the 500 mags are so popular.

Cheese

What I am saying Cheese is putting faith in solid torso hits depends on the the assailants mind set, on whether he stops. The 380 is lacking, in most respects, and my example of the 41 mag is an illustration of stopping power where the skeletal frame is not assaulted and the attack continues even when the assailant is dead on his feat.
Faith in the new COMPUTER designed bullets is a fantasy in the way of stopping power. I have seen men die of shock, with a light caliber non lethal wound to the leg, because they thought they were going to die. I also worked a case where the man had 42 entrance wounds from #4 buckshot. While he testified in court a year later, he held a handkerchief under his left ear, as a saliva gland had been rerouted there pending more reconstructive surgery.
Theories work fine on paper and on forums, but there is nothing like reality to bring it all to light, and it is seldom what the philosopher thinks it will be . Testosterone hand cannons are not the answer either.

[mcwoodduck]

Dee,
Drugs aside the key to stopping any attack is shot placement.  In Street stoppers two FBI agents armed with 10mm stoked with Black talons were unable to penetrate the chest of a muscle bound parolee.
Your earlier comment of the 9mm not being adequate is false.  the Ball ammo is the problem.  Ball 45 is 1% more effective in one shot stops.  If you go to the hollow points the field stays the same and the 45 is only marginally better because it makes a bigger hole.  In the Straussburg tests ( they took different types of ammo and shot goats and timed how long it took for the goat to expire) ( PETA still uses it as a battle cry)  45 was not more effective in the same bullet designs.
With any handgun all I can say is Mozambique! drills.

[Cheesehead]

I will agree, that there are many, more powerful hand guns and cartridges as compared to the 380, but none as compact and carryable.

Cheese

[Dee]

mcwoodduck, the key to stopping any attack is indeed shot placement, but I have given a real life example of a heart shot NOT stopping the attack. Unless the skeleton is broken down, or a head shot is lucked upon, shot placement sometimes does not immediately stop the attack. The SKELETON must be broken down or the HEAD shot is the ONLY THING that will guarantee a stop. As far as the 9mm being a poor stopper, my comment is NOT false. It has the poorest one shot stopping record in law enforcement history since the 60s when data started being compiled nation wide on officer involved shoots. This data is collected by the FBI and published yearly to law enforcement agencies.
As far as the black talon hollow points they are like any other hollow point. With out liquid to perform the hydraulics needed to expand the bullet they do not expand. Plain and simple.
I for one NEVER depended on the hollow point in regards to the 45acp, but chose a 200 grain flat point at an approximate 1000fps, as it was not as likely to glance off bone, but would rather bite into the bone usually shattering, or breaking it. Shooting a bowling pin in the side can demonstrate this rounds tendency to do so. The 9mm in any form (and ball for defense is laughable) lacks the weight and power to do so reliably. FBI shoot stats have proved this over and over for about 3 decades. Thus law enforcements reasoning for gradually pulling away from the 9mm.
My experience working shootings as an investigator, and forensic lab reports substantiates these FBI findings.
I have not on the other hand, any experience shooting goats, and doubt the FBI does either. I prefer actual shootings data for information, rather than lab shot goats. And would tout the FBI reports as far more credible that someone shooting goats. In this instance I believe PETA might have a case for such foolishness.

[mcwoodduck]

Dee,
If you have empirical evidence, I'll agree with you about the 9.  I still fell well armed with mine on my hip. 
The goat test was done at the same time the Book Street stoppers came out and was an attempt to give a number to a chest shot for a bullet on real flesh and bone.  I forget who wanted to test bullet design and caliber.   
When I carried My 380 it was stoked with 102 grain Golden Sabers.  Would I rather have had either my P226 in 9mm with Black Talons (legal to buy then) or my M29 with .44 specials with the Remington hollow point Keith lead bullets? Heck yes! But both would have "printed" when I was riding my bike from one side of Norfolk to the other and a 3" smith M65 in .357 would not come out in my hand from the holster I wanted to use.  The P230 was the only one I could draw from the fanny pack and it jumped into my hand ready.  I practiced with the gun alot before carrying it and made sure the ammo would feed.  I also practiced two shots to the chest one to the head ( The Mozambique drill ) on moving silhouettes.  I even took the bike to the farm and practiced shooting from the bike as well as dismounting and keeping the bike between me and the threat. And when I say bike I mean Schwinn not Harley. (Broke College Kid)  Yes I had $ for guns and beer but saved on gas when I could.
In shooting an action pistol shoot at the club I belong to, the flat nose FMJ 380's will move swingers that the snub nose 38's won't ( also a flat nose FMJ).  The same 38's out of my 4 or 6" Smiths will move the steel plates without a problem.  That tells me I'd rather have my 380 with 8 than the snub 38 with 5 or 6 in a dark alley on my way back to my car as a small carry pistol.
The other question is how often is a civilian involved in shooting a person on PCP?  Should I trade in my P230 for a Sig P245 ( Compact 45 Acp about the size of the P230) for more mass to break the back bone?   

[j two dogs]

Since my last post on this particular thread, I have recounted. I carried my kel-tec .380 happy as a lark for awhile, then things started happening. Almost everybody in our local gun shop had one in there pocket. Things started happening to them, not while they were shooting mine you, but while they were in there pockets. One had a trigger/hammer spring break in his pocket! This left me very discomforted, another had something go wrong, not sure of the details, but could not fire it, had to go back to kel-tec, these incidents may be unrelated and totally a fluke, but still the same the doubt factor started nagging me. I was aware that the .380 cal. was border line at best and since the kel-tec was small enough to carry, -vs- a full sized .380 ie Sig., I felt justified in my choice, no longer. I have since sold my kel-tec and have gone with smith airweight, with .38 +p. I would much rather have my Kimber in a gun fight for that matter my smith m+p ar 15 but neither of the last two fit very well in my pocket.

[turbocat]

most will agree that  what we carry is a compromise in some area or the other. however we tend to forget that in our discussions. for every unsuccessful one shot .22 story there is an unsuccessful big bore....and vice-versa. we can't fore-see all situations, so it's non-sense to demand that our carry pistols always meet every need perfectly. common sense reasoning is an important part of our planning....hence the adage a .22 at the scene is better than a .45 at home. as noted above it's just sensible to have what you WILL carry often rather than the arsenal you IMAGINE you'll religiously carry. a few will carry a full size .45 Kimber with 4 spare mags plus a 9mm back-up on each leg, but the overwhelming majority will not. the object is to stop the bad guy isn't it? on this site a post deals with a car-jacking attempt by 2 bad guys. by the car owners own words when he put his .380 to the fore-head of one of them, they both,with eyes bulging out turned and ran screaming everything was cool. maybe it can be explained to me why the car owner as a result of this encounter,decided he needed a .45 as the .380 wasn't enough.

[cybin]

I have read every post about the .380 here for self defense--and we all have our opinions. Here is mine. I have carried a .380 since I was sent to Vietnam. I smuggled it over there, and smuggled it home. (1969-1970) I have carried it a lot since. Its a LLAMA--built in the early 60's. I have since bought a newer one, and a Makarov. The Makarov shoots a lot better than either Llama, but I still carry the Llama. In Vietnam I was in a whore house with a broad on my lap when some gook came in and took exception the the whore sitting on my lap, he pulled a .25 out and fired at me twice--he missed. My rifle was racked behind the bar with the rest of the Gi's rifles, so I used the Llama with ball ammo--the gook went down with one shot. Now they are a small statured people, about the size of a 12 or 14 year old boy in this country.

While in Texas some years ago, I had a mexican guy pull a knife on me near Brownsville, the .380 hit him in the shoulder,(he jumped when I pulled it and just missed his head), still dropped him, (hydro-shok), and again while I was living in North Carolina many years ago, a black guy came at myself and a couple of friends out side of a nightclub in Charlotte. Again the .380 did the job, but I did have to shoot him 3 times. (He was a BIG guy) I didn't kill anyone, but the .380 did the job.

The Llama is a mini 1911 in most respects. Now I know that there are going to be people who take exception to that remark, but it has 52 parts, just like the 1911, works the same as a 1911, and shoots as poorly as a army 1911.(with out special work done on it) Evan Marshal did a lot of work recording evidence about shoot outs for many years. His conclusion was that most shoot outs take place at less than 7 yards, and usually consist of 3 shots or less. From personal experience--I agree. The Llama will keep all of the bullets in a 12 inch paper plate at 30 feet. That is/has been enough for me. I mix the rounds in the clips, 2 hydroshoks, then ball ammo.

[slim rem 7]

 just bought the kel-tec 380.. shot two other personal pro rds .. then the corbon..
 for me the difference was nite and day.. the corbon shoots as hard and penetrates as well as my 38 snubby with +p .. can t see anybody walkin thru a solid hit from it..
 at 20 ft.. the corbon split a 2by8 with 3 rds 8 inche apart in a row,,and left huge exits... the other two saftey rds left me wondering if i had enuff gun....im not gonna name them as ,i dont need to argue..but i know what im using..

[navylawdog]

First off welcome to Graybeard Outdoors! Congratulations on finding a new concealed carry weapon. I like .380's for light clothes myself. And I am glad you found a good round to use. Several people have Kel-tecs on here and they seem to like them alright.

navylawdog

[slim rem 7]

 well thank you brother.. its good to be here.. im sure ill  learn much from you fellas..
   i ll try to contribute where i can.. slim
 

[cybin]

I haven't tried any corbons in my .380 yet--I may have to give them a try. Hydo-shoks deliver better accuracy than ball in my Llama--I'll pick some up and give them a try between now and warm weather

Cybin

[slim rem 7]

  one corbon 90grn out of my kel-tec in the chest..and 95% of the time you mans on the ground..its the first small 22 size pistol that i could say i believe that about..
  that dont mean im gonna take time to take pics..hes gonna get more until hes
dn an outa the fight....big gun shooters dont believe that,,and i understand why.. but ive killed or had to put dn a lotto animals..if the corbon 90 lands in the chest first..,,
  i dont think its gonna matter what the other guy has..thats a big statement but i believe it .. im just glad i found an easy to carry  pocket pistol i really believed in..