380 Self-defense Load

[Majbg]

Just got the P3AT and looking for a good self defense load.  I have some knowledgable friends who shoot this pistol with the "Mag Safe" ammo, even though their website says specifically don't use it and they don't have any problems. Is there any other good priemum brand that anyone can reccommend?  Right now I'm using Gold Dot rounds.  Thanks.  bg

[S.S.]

The Hydra-Shok is a good round in a .380...
that is if you can find them.

[dawei]

Just got the P3AT and looking for a good self defense load.  I have some knowledgable friends who shoot this pistol with the "Mag Safe" ammo, even though their website says specifically don't use it and they don't have any problems. Is there any other good priemum brand that anyone can reccommend?  Right now I'm using Gold Dot rounds.  Thanks.  bg

Remington® Golden Saber 102gr BJHP; gives expansion & penetration. THE BEST load for a 380 IMHO.

[vicspank]

Magtech-Gold dot +P.

[jrhen]

I bought a Kel-Tec P3AT as a backup gun, here is my insight.

I cleaned and lubed the pistol. 

With the help of my son and a buddy we put 200 rounds of cheap ball ammo though the pistol to break it in.

I cleaned and lubed the pistol.

I bought a box of Hydra-Shocks, Corbon and Speer Gold dot.  No real reason to purchase these brands they were the only brands available in .380 at Sportsmans Warehouse in hollow points.  I borrowed my buddies chrono and went to the range.  To extend the ammo testing I loaded two ball rounds then three of the premiums and one ball on top.  You don't need to test if the first round will feed and the bottom two rounds of ball ammo place the same amount of pressure as the expensive ones.  I then shot the mag across the chrono as fast as I could to check the standard devation of the rounds and miss-feeding challenges. 

Results in my pistol: 
Hydra-Shocks would not feed but the shots I did get to fire turned in good chrono results.
Corbon and Speer both fed everytime with the Corbon turning in better velocities.

I loaded up a mag with Corbon and then Speer and fired them as fast as I could to check for feeding.  Both passed my test and left me with enough ammo to load a mag for carry.

I cleaned and lubed the pistol.

I am loading the mag with Corbons with a Hydra-Shock in the barrel. 

You have to do this testing for yourself, each pistol might be a little different. 

[Majbg]

Impressive. the kind of testing I would do if I still lived in TX.  I will probably follow your guidance and look forward to your future inputs. Very detailed.  Many Thanks and I'm sure there are several folks out there who feel the same way. I look forward to your future respones. bg

[Dusty Miller]

What were the velocities and what were the bullet weights?  I'm very suspicious of the notion that "380" and "self-defense" can logically be used in the same sentence.  The hottest load listed in my Speer reloading manual for the 380 auto is a 95 gr. JRN at 1027 fps.  I wouldn't even CONSIDER trusting that load to save my life from a determined criminal loaded on PCP, meth., or H (or some combination of the three).  Well, I guess if the only criminals within a 500 mile radius were septugenarian frail woman then perhaps it'd start to make some sense.  But, up against ex-con Louie Packaload juiced to the gills on his favorite illicit drug it just ain't gonna hack it.  You pays your money and you makes your choice but my choice is for something with considerably more WHALLOP than a 95 gr. bullet at 1027 fps. 

[Cheesehead]

I keep my ppk loaded with fmj ammo being unsure about adequate penetration from a relatively low powered 380 hollow point.

Cheese

[LEO]

There is not enough difference in the 380 hollowpoint loads to recommend one brand over the other.  The main, consideration would be reliablity of the firearm with the chosen load.  I have personal knowledge of two shootings with the 380, one was with hydra-shoks, one was with ball.  Both were shot multiple times with good center of mass hits, both stopped what they were doing to get shot for in the first place.  Shot placement is the critical factor with these little guns and after all we usually carry them when we can't carry anything else or as a back up.  Practice a lot with your handgun and don't just practice firing one round.

[257 roberts]

I use FMJ also.

[454Puma]

Dusty Miller
   My SD drill for using the 380 is two in CM and one in head! I even practice this using my 45 ACP!
With the 380 it is way easier to achieve! My load is 90 gr XTP's at 1000+fps! If they expand great if not they will penertrate or go completely through!

[Dusty Miller]

That sounds like a really good plan, as long as there is TIME to take three shots.  If you need a one shot stop however, uh...............

[jrhen]

The best velocity I got from my chrony with the muzzle 6 inches away from the screen was 700 fps for the Corbon and 500 fps for the cheap ball ammo I used to break in the pistol.  I would caution against anyone using their reloads in a self-defense pistol, check you local laws you may be bring a lot of trouble besides the shooting on yourself.

Dusty raises the good fireside debate, is a mouse gun better than no gun at all...?  I live where the temp is over 100 degrees for at least 100 days per year (Phx Az) I wanted a pistol you can put in your slacks\shorts or jeans pocket with out it dragging your pants down.  Anytime I tried this with my mini Glock my buddies noticed it right away.  If I don't want to wear heavy or extra clothing neither does the bad guys.  With basiclly no sights on this pistol I am aiming for the gut area.  I considered a .38 spc or a small Glock in .40 s&w an ankle rig but with age and a bum knee going down to draw means I can not get back up with out using my hands to push.  I come from the school of putting distance between me and the threat.  If that fails I want a pistol, any pistol.   I whole heartly agree with you that a hopped up 230+ lbs male may not be stopped by a .380 acp, according to the police officers I know a 9mm doesn't do to good of a job either.  I made my choice, paid my money and I pray like hell that I don't ever have answer the question,  "is 7 rounds of .380 acp is enough?"   

[Majbg]

"....is a mouse gun better than no gun at all...?"   yes.  Thats why I bought my P3AT.  It just became too impractical to carry my heavier pistols while in the hot summer months, and I found myself leaving them more and more at home.  That started to worry me and I decided to buy the Kel Tec.  I would rather have a more powerful round, but they don't make any this lite and I carry it all the time now.  To each their own, I just wanted to hear about what people were carrying in theirs.  Thanks.  bg

[Dusty Miller]

Sometimes I think carrying a "satchel" with a strap over the  head with the satchel under my right arm is the ticket in hot weather.  Maybe  not.

[jrhen]

Dusty,  that is somthing I didn't consider...  I have seen what the bicycle riders use a bag that would work, a little velcro and stiching you might have somthing.  I have a car desk that hangs off of my passenger seat that I altered a pocket to hold a holster.

[Greeenriver]

I cary my own handloads of Bluedot powder, a Rem. 88grn JHP, in Starline casses with a CCI primer.  This is in a PPK copy that has shot over 1500 of these rounds with out the first malfunction of any kind.  These reloads have reliably expanded in every substence I have tested them in except in hardwood planks.I won't list the exact powder charge, as it is a little over what is recomended, but it works well in my own pistol and I'm happy with it. 

I have heard storys about not using reloads for personal defence, but I have never been able to find one documented case where the load made a diference in a case.  One of the writters for Shooting times, Jim Wilson, has been trying for several years now to find a single documented case where the use of handloaded ammo made any diference in a case and has been unable to find one.

I don't cary the .380 all the time, when practicle, I cary something with a bit more punch, but when the weather and clothing dictate a smaller gun, that is my preference.

As for the "any gun that is with you" debate, let's see.  Hummmm.......45acp home in dresser, .22lr in pocket......Unexpected need for a firearm..................Gess I got to go with "Whatever you got on you at the time."  Given my choice, I'd much rather face a punk kid with a big caliber auto held sideways and not aimed, than an older experenced man with the same old worn 32-20 S&W pistol that he has shot for 30 years.  But then, given my choise, if the gunfight is to be on 4th street at 9:00 pm, I won't be on 4th street at 9:00 pm, I'll be miles away from there.   

I carry for the unexpected encounter, and I don't feel a bit under guned with my .380, or for that matter, with my 32H&R Mag when that is the gun in my waistband.

Greeenriver

[kyote]

the .380 as a defence pistol.you bettcha.a lot of cops carry them as back up pistols.walther has sold god knows how many in said caliber.even sig.
as what to stoke em with???I used to like the idea of the FMJs for the penatration.but pistol ammo has come a long way.now, for the most part I use the remington golden sabers.can not remember what grain they are, are what velocity they are going when I pull the trigger.I have shot them through all my pistols to ensure they feed and function.they do.I also bought several cases from SOG of some military surplus .380 soft points..they are hot.but I really do not believe they would expand.I practice with the surplus when ever I can.and have run mucho mag fulls through the three PPKSs and the two PPKs and the sig..think I have another .380 but can not remember off hand with out checking the vault.
now as for herds of gobblins on drugs attacking you..and thats all ya got.empty the mag.But practice so you hit what you aim at.and try not to hang out in areas where you would run it to those kinda folks.Gaaaads I would hate to live where that one guy does with all the giant excon's on PCP and crack heads running around.sound like he has to carry a 9mm to hold em off..man he'd blow a gasket if he found out all I normally carry is a walther TPH stoked with CCI stingers.but then I don't go looking for trouble and avoid it at all cost.

[j two dogs]

Informal test of kel-tec .380 with mag-tech ammo hollow point 97 gr., penetrated 3 20oz coffee cups full of water 2.5 inches soak compressed paper buried up 7 inches into wet mud, lost jacket retained about 70 grains of lead. Enough for me in pinch!

[Beekeeper]

My current carry gun is a Glock Model 35 with a .357 Sig barrel. The current defense load I'm using is DoubleTap's 125 grain ammo pushing those bullets over 1525 fps. Even with this load I'd still want something much bigger than any hadgun round if I was ever confronted by a tweaker, crackhead, or some other nutjob. I think a 12g shotgun loaded with 3" shells full of #4 Buck would be my first choice--I'd still rather run away though.

[John R.]

I live in Miss. and in the summer its just not practical for me to carry one of my 45's (I do in my vechical). I bought the Kel-Tec in 380 and have been loading it with 90 gr. XTP's. I can easily carry this gun in a pair of bluejeans or shorts w/o being noticed. So is a mouse gun better than the bigger gun you left in the car or at home. The answer is simple; Hell yes. I promise you I can make you want to find somebody else to assualt with 7 rounds of GOOD 380 ammo.( 2 center mass, the rest to the head or throat area) I also carry a spare mag, not to mention a razor sharp tacticle folder!!!

[TrenchMud]

I do not know of any "CARRY" handgun round that is a proven one shot stopper so I would say that just about any handgun is better than no gun at all. Adrenalin is a pretty powerful chemical in its own right and as far as the strength it gives some people to absorb lead, It ranks right up there with some illegal substances. This being said, During World War one, rounds such as the 8mm steyr, 8mm gasser, .32 acp and the 7.62x38 nagant were standard combat rounds. These rounds were pretty anemic by todays standards but they served well (and were used regularly) in the trenches of France. Raging Huns Hyped up on the adrenalin of fear were regularly dropped with these anemic rounds. Lord only knows how many men were killed by these little handgun rounds. As with any handgun that one is going to use for defence, it is more where the round goes than how big it is !
Practice, practice and then practice some more. My Main carry gun now (I sometimes carry others also though) is a 2 inch barrel .38 special which with most non +P loads is not that much more powerful than a .380 FPE wise. I shoot it well though and in no way feel under gunned. Encountering someone in a self defence situation who is hyped up on a drug such as PCP (one of the worst) is in the same odds as stepping into traffic and getting hit by a car. It is extremely rare. It can happen but probably will not in most folks lives. I worked in law enforcement for a long, long time in a very large Southern City and I saw it once. Don't get me wrong, PCP use was pretty rampant, but most of the folks were pretty happy just staring at the floor when they used it.
Most other drugs do not give the user super human strength (thus be able to absorb lead) but they will sure rob you to get more. I know it could happen, but so could a Nuclear War ! And I don't live in a bomb shelter as a precaution just in case. 95% (or more) of civilians who carry Firearms will most likely never have to use them in a defensive situation. Carry What you are comfortable with and can shoot well. You will in all probability be just fine.
BeeKeeper is Wise in saying he would still rather run away !!! Still the best option if at all possible.
No Shame in it ! I would rather be alive than to die a Loud and Glorious death, But if it comes to that,
May we all take the one who gets us With US ... !!!
   

[tnekkc]

I carry a P3AT for light crime risk neighborhoods.
I carry with 90 gr Gold Dot bullets and 6.1 gr Power Pistol, .968" OAL, no crimp.
These do 1100 ~1120 fps from my P3AT.

Usually, my handloads get some extra energy, but the P3AT has such poor case support, that factory 380 ammo is already at the threshold of case bulge.

In high risk neighborhoods, I carry a P11 with +P++ loads or a PO Hawg 45 with 45 Super loads.

[COLT45]

Another good self defence round is COR-BONs Glazer Safety Slugs

http://www.safetyslug.com/

Or go the the COR-BON web site for more info------http://www.dakotaammo.net/

380 AUTO-   70 GR. -1200FPS/224FTLBS

This rapid fragmentation delivers the energy to a large area. Reduced recoil allows a fast recovery for follow up shots if necessary. This makes Glaser the best choice for defensive situations.
Glaser Blue penetrates five to seven inches in International Ballistic Wound Association protocol testing, while silver penetrates eight to ten inches in the IWBA testing protocol.

   

[chucky52]

So is a 38+P,11 oz (empty) J frame with 5 shots better than a 380 with two mags?
I don't like +p in an 11 oz J frame and a reload is mostly out of the question.
Looking at the Sig site, the non-stainless is lighter, I like the grips on the stainless. I checked a stainless and it feels great in my hand. Can you get the non-stainless, lighter 380 and add the same grips?

[PaulS]

The 38 spl and 9mm are so close ballistically that they could be the same cartridge in the same gun.
Look in any reloading manual at the 38 spl loads for bullet weight and velocity and then turn it to 9mm and look at the same bullet weights and check the velocities. They are closer that the mean average deviation from shot to shot in either gun.
The 380 is a distant second and won't handle the heaviest bullets that either the 38 spl or 9mm will. The 380 can kill under the right circumstances and with the right person holding the gun. It is better than some of the guns I have heard that people carry and it is definitely better than no gun at all. It would not be my first choice for two reasons. 1- Not enough gun and 2- semi-auto. Don't care for either one. I carry a 357 Mag with a six inch barrel. It will over-penetrate every time and I can load it with lubricated FMJ bullets that won't even slow down going through light body armor or I can load it with exploding bullets that will act as an ignition source or a fragmentary bullet in a person. I don't use either of those I use a 140 gr JHP. That is the load that I shoot when I have the gun in use. It works for any hunting I will do with it, it worked for Hunter's pistol NRA competition, and it is real good on targets.

[tnekkc]

The 38 sp, the 9mm, and the 380 all usually have plenty of pressure safety margin to exploit with handloads.
But the 6 ounce unloaded P3AT has no pressure  safety margin for handloads to exploit.
The case support is poor, the chamber walls are .060" thin, and the slide mass is wimpy.
But, the P3AT fits in my shirt pocket and is so light I can't feel that I am carrying it, so it is carried instead of one of my better handguns.

[Old Griz]

My wife and I have put 600 rounds through her P3AT. So far only the Blazer FMJ will feed and eject. Never had a gun that jamed as much as this one.

We're going to stick with the FMJ. Would rather have that little slug actually reach a vital organ rather than expand and stop before hitting something important.

[gr8ful]

Federal hyda-shoks and Hornady xtp's both shoot and feed well in my wife's P3AT.  As far as is the .380 adequate for self defense I will go with the" any gun is better than no gun at all" crowd on this one.  BTW I carry a Kel-tec P32 in my pocket at all times, and a 1911 45 on my side (open carry) or in my vehicle.  Hopefully I will never have reason to use either, but just in case, 7 rounds of 32 ACP is bound to leave a mark, and maybe buy me enough time to get to my truck.

[Dusty Miller]

Count me among that crowd who believes there is no such thing as a .380 ACP "self-defense" round.  If I had to trust my life to a .380 I'd just stay home.