7mm Rem mag vs. 300 Win mag

[R.W.Dale]

 Can you say GROSS OVERLOAD. If I had a 7mm mag load that chronographed that fast with a 175grn bullet. I wouldn't finish shooting the batch. That's what bullet pullers are for.

[NONYA]

Starting this year I can apply for griz tags here in MT,I hope I need this data!

[beemanbeme]

Uhhhh, the big 7 is a great favorite of mine but I gotta ask, in real life, what is the 175gr bullet at 3088fps gonna do that it won't do at 2800fps???   Except, perhaps,  lock up your action at a really, really embarassing moment.    Also, the books I read say the 160 has greater retained energy downrange that the 175.

[Mr. Joe]

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[beemanbeme]

Gee, I thought you'd never ask.  Magnums were developed in order to send a greater weight of metal downrange at the same velocity as a lesser cartridge.  Thus you can shoot a 200gr bullet from a .300WM at @2800fps which is the same velocity for a 165gr bullet from a 30-06. You can shoot a 175gr bullet from a 7mag at the same velocity as a 150gr bullet from a .280.  You get the idea, right?  Your 200fps comes at a high price of equipment stress, which, as I posted, will fail at the most embarassing moments. 
You say the 175gr bullets fired at 3000+ fps have been quite safe with regards to pressure.  What was your means of measuring the pressure?? 
Don't get me wrong. You can motor your rifles as fast as you'd like. I'm just curious 'cause I've been tinkering around with the big 7 and the 300WM for around 40 years and I've never had a 7mag that would push a 175gr bullet in excess of 3000fps without letting you know about it.   

[NONYA]

have you ever had a 7 mag blow up on you do to overload?

[Coyote Hunter]

175gr. Nosler Partitions are routinly loaded past 3000 fps in the big 7.  I hit 3100 eaisly and safely in a 24 inch tube....

69.6 of RS Magnum.  The 3000fps mark can also be hit with 64.5 of IMR 7828. These are hot loads so work up to them of course, but like i said...no presure signs what so ever in my ruger.  A slightly hoter load yet is 66.8 of Reloder 25.  The idea of hitting the 3000fps mark in the 7 mag is not a new or novel idea.  I have read of it in many a book, and have seen it done many a time.  I personaly dont shoot the 175gr. loads very often as i dont hunt big bears, but i have loaded and shot a decent ammount of them just for the fun of it. 

Mr Joe -

From your previous posts, you are making the following claims regarding the 7mm Rem Mag:

1. "175gr. Nosler Partitions are routinly loaded past 3000 fps".
2. You "hit 3100 eaisly and safely in a 24 inch tube...."
3. 69.6g RS Magnum will do it.
4. 64.5g IMR 7828 will do it.
5. 66.8g Reloder 25 will do it.

Here's a reality check:

1. The 7mm Rem Mag has a SAAMI limit of 61,000 PSI.
2. From a 24" tube, with 175g Partitions:
 * 70.1g RS Magnum = 2852fps @ 58,200PSI (Fed 215 primer, Source = www.ramshot.com)
 * 61.0g IMR 7828 = 2702fps @ 58,300PSI (Source = www.hodgdon.com)
 * 65.8g Reloder 25 = 2873fps @ 58,100PSI (Fed 215 primer, Source = www.alliantpowder.com)

All of these loads are considerably under 3000fps and much further under 3100fps. 

Let's look at the IMR 7828 load...

From the Hodgdon 2007 Annual Manual:
Case: Winchester
Primer: Winchester LR
Barrel: 24"
Bullet: 175g Nosler Partition
57.0g IMR 7828 =  2549fps @  49,800 PSI 
61.0g IMR 7828 =  2707fps @  58,300 PSI

So 4.0g more powder gains  gains 158fps at the cost of an additional 8,500 PSI.  In a linear world, another 4.0g, or 65.0g total, would yield 2865fps at a pressure of 66,800 PSI.  In a linear world, you would need around 69.0g IMR 7828 for a velocity of 3023fps.  Pressure would be in the neighborhood of 75,300 PSI.

But this is not a linear world.  At top pressure levels, pressure tends to increase in a non-linear manner as additional powder is used.  In other words, you suggested 64.5g IMR 7828 is probably well above 66,800 PSI - especially if 3,000fps is really being achieved.

In the real world:

1. Your RS Magnum load is below maximum most likely well below 3,000fps, even given normal gun-to-gun variances.
2. Your IMR 7828 load is 3.5g above maximum, probably dangerously so, and probably still well below 3,000fps.
3. Your Reloder 25 load is 1.0g above maximum and probably still well below 3,000fps.

[Coyote Hunter]

Mr. Joe -

Here's a few more data points for 175g 7mm bullets:

Hodgdon - 7mm Weatherby, 175g Hornady SP
IMR 7828 =    67.5g,  2942fps  52,600 CUP 
H1000 =      74.7gC,  3022fps,  54,000 CUP 

Hodgdon - 7mm STW, 175g Nosler Partition
IMR 7828 =    71.7g,  2910fps,  53,000 CUP 

Hodgdon - 7mm Remington Ultra Mag, 175g Swift SP
US 869 =   102.0g,  3077fps,  63,000 PSI       
H50BM =      96.0g,  3019fps,  63,100 PSI       
Retumbo =   91.5g,  3069fps,  63,400 PSI       
H1000 =      87.0g,  3021fps,  63,500 PSI     


Alliant - 7mm Weatherby, 175g Sierra Spitzer
Reloder 22  =   67.4g,  2,965fps,  52,500 CUP

Alliant - 7mm STW, 175g Nosler Partition
Reloder 25 =   78g,  3,131fps,  63,700 PSI


Ramshot - 7mm Weatherby and STW
No data

Ramshot - 7mm Winchester Short Magnum, 175g Nosler Partition
MAGNUM =   72.2g,  2,925ps,  63,380 PSI


If you want to push a Partition to 3100fps with IMR 7828, get a RUM and use a 160g:
Hodgdon - 7mm Remington Ultra Mag, 160g Partition
IMR 7828 =   84.5g,  3140fps,  62,000 PSI 

If you think you're safely hitting 3100fps with a 175g bullet in a 7mm Rem Mag, I suggest another think.

[Mr. Joe]

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[NONYA]

Im interested Joe,we all know those COPY AND PASTE experts are getting thier data from books that never push the limits and like factory amunition underload everything to prevent lawsuits.Ill start a thead in The world according to Nonya concerning 7mag loads over 3000 fps,please repost your findings there,Thanx.

[Coyote Hunter]

Im interested Joe,we all know those COPY AND PASTE experts are getting thier data from books that never push the limits and like factory amunition underload everything to prevent lawsuits.Ill start a thead in The world according to Nonya concerning 7mag loads over 3000 fps,please repost your findings there,Thanx.

For what its worth I not only can copy and paste from web sources (my data books are at home 1000 miles away right now), I've also been loading the 7mm Rem Mag for 25 years.  For most of those years it was my primary big game rifle.

As to using sources that "never push the limits", I've listed both the SAAMI MAP and the load pressures as reported by the individual data providers.  That is considerably more than Mr. Joe has done with his loads.

I am quite happy to let the readers draw their own conclusions from factual, independently verifiable data rather than resorting to casting aspersions on the people providing that data, as you are doing.  If you and Mr. Joe want some crdedibility you need to provide references to pressure tested data from reliable and verifiable sources.  I won't hold my breath.

In my own opinion, given Mr. Joes claim that he can "hit 3100 eaisly and safely in a 24 inch tube...." with a 7mm Mag and a 175g bullet, is that people that use his data are not people I care to share the range with. 

As for myself, I will base my loads on pressure-tested data published by the manufacturers, with a strong preference for data providers that publish their pressures along with the powder charges.   The 7mm Rem Mag is a fine cartridge but it cannot safely keep up with the Weatherby, STW or RUM.

[R.W.Dale]

All i can say, is that my brass has shown no pressure signs,

 You do realize that pressure signs on brass have more to do with the individual rifle than the actual load fired and typically by the time overpressure signs occour(if they occour) you're way way beyond the "just overcoming lawyers" stage.

 Which leaves me wondering. Do you own a chronograph? If you do that 3100FPS reading is screaming at you that your loads are showing exessive pressure signs. In other words pay heed to what your chronograph tells you and forget the primer and case appearnce voodo.





 Do the shooting community a favor. Never resell or trade off any of your rifles.









 Oh and I forgot 300 magnums rule! Those 7mm's are just also rans

[NONYA]

Dont worry coyote my range is in my back yard,Id rather have Joes hands on data than your cut and paste expertiece,thanx for sharing though,and this also ran of mine has killed more elk,deer,bear,moose,coyotes,badgers,fox,mountian lion and antelope than I can keep track off,sure wish i had a real rifle like a 300,id be a way better hunter!!!ROFL!!!

[R.W.Dale]

i had a real rifle like a 300,id be a way better hunter!!!ROFL!!!

Just wait untill the magnum bashers find this thread and tell you that if you used a cartrige without a belt you would indeed be a better sportsman; and actually mean it

[Coyote Hunter]

Dont worry coyote my range is in my back yard,Id rather have Joes hands on data than your cut and paste expertiece,thanx for sharing though,and this also ran of mine has killed more elk,deer,bear,moose,coyotes,badgers,fox,mountian lion and antelope than I can keep track off,sure wish i had a real rifle like a 300,id be a way better hunter!!!ROFL!!!

NONYA -

If you would rather have unverifiable data from unreliable sources than verifiable, pressure-tested data generated in carefully controlled laboratory conditions and provided by reputable, responsible sources, that is certainly your choice. 

Not only can I cut and paste, I can spell.  For some reason I think of you and the term "I-D-I-O-T" comes to mind. 

[R.W.Dale]

 It always amazes me just how careless some people can be with what should be controlled explosions. Especally in light of them being mere inches away from their face and eyesight.

 Natural selection at it's finest.

"what's the big deal my load is only a little hot"

 If your rifle decides to give up the fight it won't just explode a "little bit" in your face.

[Buckmaster 30-30]

woah guys , theres no use to argue about something like this , if some like the 7mm better than the 300 mag thats fine , if some like the 300 better thats fine , i didnt think thie would start and argument i was just wondering what you guys thought of these calibers and see the pros and cons of both. everyone is intitled to their own opinions. I should have put wich caliber you guys like better instead of which one is better , there is no caliber that is better than another , just some oare better suited to different things. so guys just try not to argue about this.

[Mac11700]

I think everyone should step back and take a breath here...Let's keep thing civil..and leave the name calling out of this... Verifiable loading data is the way of doing things correctly...It's the foundation needed to be used for all reloaders...I'm not saying folks won't go over the maximum recommended loads...because most reloaders will at some point...however....to exclaim they are safe without any real testing is ludicrous....These loads may work well in your rifle..but the reality of getting this high a velocity...is a major increase in pressure...especially with your stipulation of a 24" barrel...and a 4grain increase in powder..I do understand that a person may have a exceptional barrel that gives higher velocities than the normal testing barrels...they don't happen everyday...but they do happen...I actually have one...in the least likely type of rifle...and I can achieve much higher than book velocities...while staying well under the maximum recommended loading data...but...nothing approaching 300fps over as what is being suggested as safe velocity threshold on this thread and certainly not in a 24" barrel either......So...for all concerned please keep that in mind...and please try to remain civil in the process...and leave out the name calling...least the thread get locked...

Thanks

Mac

[NONYA]

coyote i can get all the data you cut and paste from the same sites u get it from,i want the data you cant get from those sites,you dont have it Joe does,If you have any data on loading a 175 in a 7mag over 3000 fps please share,otherwise quit hacking on the only guiy that does,oh yhe call all the names you like,it just shows me what kind of person im talking to.

[Mac11700]

Nonya:

The whole point of this is there isn't any verifiable loading data to achieve this velocity with a 175 grain in a 7mm mag...If you want untested data to use in your rifles...then that is entirely up to you...but..don't expect folks to agree with anyone saying it is safe for all rifles...because it's not...wither you agree or disagree...

Mac

[R.W.Dale]

coyote i can get all the data you cut and paste from the same sites u get it from,i want the data you cant get from those sites,you dont have it Joe does,If you have any data on loading a 175 in a 7mag over 3000 fps please share,otherwise quit hacking on the only guiy that does,oh yhe call all the names you like,it just shows me what kind of person im talking to.

 Why it's pretty simple to achieve 3000 fps+ with a 7mm mag. You trade that dainty rem mag in for a 7mm Weatherby or Ultra mag. Othewize do you think that extra 300fps will.......

,id be a way better hunter!!!ROFL!!!

BTW; none of my reloading manuals have anything CLOSE to those kind of velocities

[Mr. Joe]

Im deleting all my posts on the topic...Too many panties in a twist...never meant to offend anyone

[jro45]

My 175 gr bullet goes 2970 FPS but I have a 26" barrel. I thought that was pretty good out of my 7mm Mag.

[NONYA]

Pm sent Joe

[Coyote Hunter]

My 175 gr bullet goes 2970 FPS but I have a 26" barrel. I thought that was pretty good out of my 7mm Mag.

That is well below the 3100fps you claimed and the extra 2" on the barrel will add around 50-75fps to the velocity when compared to a 24" tube.

[NONYA]

Coyote do you do anything but cut people down and try to discredit thier data?

[Siskiyou]

I went looking for a 300 Winchester Magnum, and ended up with a 7MM Remington Magnum. I was preparing for a hunt and the dealer who gave me a good price did not have a Ruger M77 in 300 Winchester in stock.  My love of life cartridge is the .270 Winchester, and is my first choice when I go hunting.

But I wanted a round that tossed a bigger bullet for deeper penetration.  I believe the 160-grain and 175 grain bullets in the 7MM Magnum provide an extra margin of energy over the .270.  It is no different then a police officer carrying a .357 magnum, over a .38 Special.  The objective is stopping power and still being able to handle the firearm.

From my logbook I shot over a Chrony at 6000 feet elevation, with a 70-degree temperature.  The day was a little less then ideal because of passing thunderheads messing up the lighting.

The rifle has a 24-inch tube.

According to my Data Collection Sheet I was using 78 grains of H870 powder.

The bullet was a 175 grain Remington C-L and the velocity ran from 2767 fps to 2776 fps.

Accuracy at 100 yards was one inch. 

I tried some Remington 175 grain C-L from a box I purchased back in the late 70’s.  Velocity was averaging 2850.  But I have question marks all over the data because passing clouds were messing up the lighting for the Chrony and I was getting some Err messages. 

I did fire a few rounds loaded with 78.5 grains of H870 with a slight increase in average velocity.  But I had to give up with temperatures dropping and the sound of thunder.

My notes from that day tell me to increase the charge to 79 grains of H870.  I have done that and found it to still be an accurate load.  I have used this charge with Remington 175 grain C-L, 175 grain Speer Hot Core, and Mag Tips, along with 175-grain Hornaday bullets.  But I have not fired it across my Chrony. 

I guess I have a couple of points to make.  One my H870 load is very accurate with the bullets tested.  Except with factory loads, the rifle accuracy with factory ammunition has been unacceptable.

The velocity of my load from a 24-inch barrel does not achieve published factory velocities, or the velocity achieved with factory ammunition under the similar conditions.  A drop in temperature of five degrees being the variable.
 

Testing at 6000 feet surely simulates the conditions that I hunt in.  I believe that most factory testing is at lower elevation and simulates sea level conditions.  I have never hunted at sea level.

From analyzing my firing over the Chrony the biggest advantage I obtain over my .270 Winchester  with my 150-grain loads, is increased energy and Assumed deeper penetration.  To be competitive with the .270 Winchester I need to fall back to a 160-grain bullet.  At the cost of carrying a heavier rifle, and more recoil.  Depending on the hunt, the results are worth the cost.

If I was hunting in Griz country my choice of rifles would quickly change from the .270 Winchester to the 7MM Mag, or 300 Mag.  Having encountered a Griz while armed with a fishing pole most any firearm would have been a comfort.  Another change I would make is that I would start developing loads using Magpro powder. 

[Coyote Hunter]

Coyote do you do anything but cut people down and try to discredit thier data?

Absolutely.  But when I see data that looks dangerous, such as Mr. Joes suggested loads, or just flat wrong for some reason I don't let it stand unchallenged either, either.

[NONYA]

You have never tested it,how can you prove its dangerous or unstable?There is a lot to learn about reloading that isnt in your book or your cut and paste sermons.You have 0 first hand experience with the load that was being discused,who are you to give the guy so much flack he bows out of the conversation to avoid your negativity?Some of us are willing to go beyond the book and if its dangerous its our personal choice to make NOT YOURS!

[R.W.Dale]

You have never tested it,how can you prove its dangerous or unstable?

 It's clocking is exess of 300 FPS faster than any other maximum 7mm remington pressure loadings and is right up there with 7mm weatherby. If you cannot see where this load could be potentally dangerous then I've got some great swampland for sale just ready for development.

 Can you even verify the source for "the load" after all MrJoe just "copied and pasted' it from a webpage. For all you know it could have been cooked up by our old friend Clark Kaboom.