Author Topic: Death penalty  (Read 2259 times)

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Offline shotgunner

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Death penalty
« on: September 27, 2006, 04:20:52 AM »
I have been reading about the shooting of a NY state trooper. It seems that there was a bank robbery and the trooper happened to pass the perps as they were going to switch cars, not knowing that the bank had been robbed just moments before. As the trooper, Andrew Sperr, walked up to the car the shooter says to his partner, " do you want to do a little time or a lot?". " New York doesn't have the death penalty" and lastly " I am going to shoot the mother*******".  I have been told that the death penalty is not a deterent to murder. In this case it looks like it might have saved this brave young man's life. Shotgunner
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Offline George Denys

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Re: Death penalty
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2006, 11:01:00 AM »
NY does have the death penalty...........it's just never used. It came into being around the time of the Republican revolution, about 1994.

Offline Mikey

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Re: Death penalty
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2006, 03:42:27 AM »
I think they should put all the captiol offenders in one maximum security prison and execute them one at a time, without fanfare or the availability of 'hero worshippers' or family comfort.  I feel they should be kept out of other prisons so as not to have the rest of the prison population make them into some sort of a role model. 

Further, I have always felt that once NYS enacted its death penalty it should have hired one executioner to exact the final punishment from these killers.  I'm not in favor of any soft soaping here, as ya can tell.  I think it should go down badly for the killers.  Dragged from their cells by ropes around their necks or ankles, stood against a wall and just shot, unceremoniously; then dragged away by the same ropes to a hole in the ground already dug by the next two in line and buried in an unmarked grave, save for the prison number. 

I have had the distasteful job to interview a large number of capitol offenders and every single time I have left the room or the prison where I have conducted the interview I am always reminded that Sam Colt made the 45 for a reason, and those killers are one example.  JMHO.  Mikey.

Offline George Denys

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Re: Death penalty
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2006, 02:07:11 PM »
I agree with one exception. DNA testing must be fully funded to prevent the unspeakable. It has happened. After that.....Bang, thump.....bang, thump......bang, thump........ect.

Offline JPSaxMan

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Re: Death penalty
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2006, 04:46:52 PM »
So I guess that @$$ will be doing some heavy jail time, or be getting the death penalty. But isn't the death penalty in some ways an easy out? Would you rather have a quick and painless death than to rott in prison for years and possibly die of something pretty nasty?
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Offline shotgunner

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Re: Death penalty
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2006, 04:36:09 AM »
All I know is that this guys buddy testified that they weren't worried because they knew they wouldn't get "the chair". They already knew what prison life was like and when they got caught robbing a bank they knew they were going back. They had spend much of thier life behind bars, it hadn't stopped tham from trying the robbery. If NY has the death penelty they should use it, especially for those who kill a cop or a prison guard. I also don't see where DNA would affect this case, the policeman was shot from a distance. Shotgunner
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Offline JeffG

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Re: Death penalty
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2006, 05:32:53 PM »
As a career Law Enforcement Officer I have come to see the Death Penalty as one thing.  Permanent removal of unsalvageable criminals from society.  I don't feel that you deter anyone, you can't really punish someone that far gone, and nobdy's death really redeams anyone under these circumstances.  Society has to come to see that "taking out the garbage" is a chore, but a needed one. My opinion. JeffG
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Offline OSPD312

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Re: Death penalty
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2006, 07:18:10 PM »
As a law enforcement officer I feel that the death penalty should be used in full force...Some of these scrotebags dont care a bit to kill...As a matter of fact they need a drive thru window on death row. Some people are evil, and have no place in normal society.I believe if you are caught with a meth lab it should be a death sentence. We can learn alot from the old days...bring back public hangings, or whip em with a knotted plow line in the street. Its all a pipe dream though, liberals will never let that happen.

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Offline NH K-9

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Re: Death penalty
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2006, 09:40:08 AM »
I'm also a LE Officer and have to agree.  Some people can't be salvaged and some people can't be deterred.  These people have nothing to offer society and should be purged from it.

Offline WylieKy

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Re: Death penalty
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2006, 12:00:14 PM »
I agree with one exception. DNA testing must be fully funded to prevent the unspeakable. It has happened. After that.....Bang, thump.....bang, thump......bang, thump........ect.

Forget bang, thump.  It should be thump, swish.......thud.  Rattle, rattle.  The firing squad is way to humane, bring backe the rope!  And bring it back for any premeditated violent crime, and any violent rape or child molestation.  Only, they should use a short rope for rape and child molestation!!!!

It should be done within 12 months if there is DNA evidence with one appeal. 

While I'm on my soap box.

1. No TV. Period.
2. No non-educations reading material. (newspapers should have everything but news censored or removed.)
3. Food-should be water, gruel, and vitamin suppliments. All you can choke down.
4. No visitaion.
5. No phone, internet, radio, or anything fun.
6. No smoking
7. No "activity yard."  For exersize they can clean the roads.  If they are too dangerous for that, let them run on a treadmill in a     10x10 room with no windows.  No lifting weights.

There is a reason the prisions are over crowded.  It's way too fun!

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Offline JPSaxMan

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Re: Death penalty
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2006, 05:18:24 PM »
There is a reason the prisions are over crowded.  It's way too fun!

WylieKy


Heh...how freaking true is that.
JP

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Offline Mikey

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Re: Death penalty
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2006, 04:19:21 AM »
WylieKy has it right - the prisons are overcrowded because it is just too much fun for the criminals there.  They like it there, they can get almost everything they want, drugs, sex, food, bed.  Where is the incentive for a criminal to stay out of jail???? 

I am not in favor of life sentences for killers.  I see no plausible reason for allowing them to live a comfortable life in an environment where their crimes have made them or placed them on some sort of an honor roll in a prison.  As I have previously stated, they should be executed without fanfare.

Look at it this way - if a killer comes face to face with an armed citizen he is liable to be killed - not something he/she wants.  But if they come face to face with cops and they know that if they can't shoot their way out of the encounter they can always drop the gun and they won't get shot.  That then means a comfortable jail cell surrounded by the sort of societal garbage that places them higher on the pecking order if they are cop killers. 

I doubt that cop killer phillips is going to be all that unhappy in jail.  He killed one State Tropper and wounded another.  He is going to be a hero in the prison population.  I don't see why the law or society would tolerate that. 

I firmly believe the death penalty to be a deterrent, especially when carried out regularly.  When criminals understand they will be executed for murder there is that small glimmer of light that says to them - hmmmm, maybe I shouldn't.......

Prisons aren't supposed to be full of good times for bad guys.  They should be holding places for those to be executed and considered little more than bed and board for those who have committed lesser crimes and who are forced to labor their sentences away during hard time.

This is, of course, just my opinion.  But it draws from experience.  Mikey. 

Offline Greysky

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Re: Death penalty
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2006, 06:42:25 AM »
I honestly don't think I'd be very happy about being sentenced to life at hard labor with no chance for parole. In fact, I would gladly opt for death by whatever means. After all, death is inevitable for everyone who survives long enough anyway.

Of course, those who promote the concept "kill them all, let God sort them out" would probably say, "Well, you don't possess a criminal mentality." To which I would reply, "You don't actually know this for a fact, do you?"  :-X

Anyway, I can understand why police officers get tired of the swinging door system. Having to arrest repeat offenders repeatedly is bad for morale, not to mention dangerous.

If it is a proven fact that a high percentage of child related sex offenders continue to molest children as long as they're able to, why don't the courts take a hint and keep these perps behind bars?
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Offline nabob

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Re: Death penalty
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2006, 02:44:46 PM »
Anyone who thinks prison is fun hasn't been to the ones I've visited friends in. Rapes, beatings, killings, maimings, extortion - the idea that it is just a place to stay and get free food and TV isn't accurate. True, there are some that are in jails because they want to have a place to stay over the winter months, but these are people who are very careful not to get sent anyplace like a penitentiary. Doing real time is not a vacation.

Offline elmer

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Re: Death penalty
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2006, 12:52:15 PM »
nabob,

It doesn't seem to be much of a deterent. I have to wonder how much of the "Rapes, beatings, killings, maimings, extortion" are being committed by the very type of lifer criminals that should be sumarily executed because they have nothing more to fear. Prison would probably be a more humane place, even with the entertainment removed, for those that have made a mistake and can still be rehabilitated if the lifers were executed.
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Offline nabob

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Re: Death penalty
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2006, 02:26:34 PM »
Perhaps it is not a deterrent, but that is not the same as saying it is a vacation. I don't think I'm on board with the idea that we should kill people who beat other people or extort money, either.

Offline DWTim

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Re: Death penalty
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2006, 08:27:52 AM »
Whenever I read about something like this, it really gets under my skin. Two incidents stand out in my mind from 7 to 8 years ago. Both of them involved cops in Connecticut. As I begin to write this, I can feel my blood pressure rising...

The first was New Milford, CT police officer Scott Smith incident in December of 1998. The Pro-Goblin Lobby went into full force over this incident, and even to this day it is very difficult to get the whole truth. The condensed version of the story was that the suspect was shot in the back. Period. Officer Smith was initially sentenced to 12 years in prison. He fought it, but after years of fighting, gave up and agreed to never work as an LEO again, and to serve a greatly reduced sentence. Even now, if I look for information, I get things like this entry in the 'stolenlives.org' site (which is a typical example):

Quote from: stolenlives.org
Mr. Reid was shot in the back and killed by a white cop, New Milford Police Officer Scott Smith, after a foot chase and an alleged “scuffle.” The victim was unarmed and on his knees when he was shot at close range (possibly point-blank range). Mr. Reid was described in the press as a “convicted sex offender...wanted by police for failure to appear on a number of charges.” His family said he planned to turn himself in. Officer Smith justified the shooting, saying he feared for his life when the victim allegedly made a sudden motion. Officer Smith was charged with murder, a first for an on-duty police shooting in Connecticut. He was released on $250,000 bail and put on paid leave until the case is resolved. Mr. Reid is survived by his girlfriend, three children and his parents. His family filed a wrongful death lawsuit. His mother said, “This is a brutal thing. This could have been avoided.” His girlfriend said, “He was unarmed; they shot him the back. He was going to turn himself in.” Mr. Reid’s death was the second fatal police shooting in Connecticut in three days.

Allow me to paint a sharper picture:

"...New Milford Police Officer Scott Smith, after a foot chase ..."
Reid ran into the middle of a highway during the lunch hour rush, likely knowing that the officer couldn't use deadly force, and was at a high risk of being run over. I know Rt. 202 in New Milford, it's a busy road. It's hard enough to take a left out onto it during periods of heavy traffic, much less cross it on foot.

"...an alleged “scuffle”..."
The officer was attempting to handcuff the suspect using one hand (his pistol in the other) when he fired on Reid. There were no witnesses to the "scuffle", but there were witnesses after the shot was fired, and Reid had his hands out in front of him, not in cuffs. Apparently Reid didn't want to be arrested after all. Not a good choice when a police officer is standing over you, pointing a loaded weapon at your back.

"... The victim was unarmed and on his knees when he was shot at close range..."
Reid was not on unarmed, he was carrying a folding knife. Officer Smith recounted that Reid was reaching in his pocket for something. I find it amazing that the court can read minds, and determine that Officer Smith shot Reid just for the hell of it, but it is entirely beyond reason that Reid -- who up to the point was resistant to arrest and had attempted to stab other officers -- had decided to reach for his weapon. According to the court's findings, Reid was not on his knees, he was prostrate, as procedure requires.

"...Mr. Reid was described in the press as a 'convicted sex offender...wanted by police for failure to appear on a number of charges...'
It makes it sound like he had porn on his PC and he skipped out on a few court dates for speeding tickets. Reid was technically an illegal alien from Jamaica, who was in the process of being deported because of his felony record. He had been sentenced to five years in prison 1995, but was let out after 28 months. He had a record which included assault, sexual assault, weapon violations, and was a registered sex offender. He was a real charmer, who beat his girlfriend, and threatened to kill his own mother with a gun, knife and an axe on different occasions. He had previously stabbed someone in New Milford. He was known for resisting arrest, and the NMPD were familiar with his behavior, since he had attempted to stab a NMPD officer when he was arrested in May of the same year. He threatened to kill his parole officer three months before he was shot by Officer Smith. This is by no means even close to a complete account of Reid's criminal record.

At the time of the incident, Reid had FIVE outstanding warrants for his arrest, and according to the New Milford Spectrum, the warrants were issued for "two counts of probation violation on a past felony sexual assault convictions, failure to appear for six counts of harassment second degree, failure to appear on charges of sexual assault third degree, assault second degree, breach of peace and threatening his probation officer."

"...His family said he planned to turn himself in..."
Yeah, sure. That's probably why he had accumulated five outstanding warrants, was violating his parole when spotted, and attempted to ditch the car (he wasn't supposed to be driving) and bugged out when he realized he was recognized.


To understand why I am upset, you need to understand some other things from my perspective. During the fiasco with Officer Scott Smith, radio and TV was literally inundated with news about the arrest and trial of Smith. They never once failed to mention that he shot someone in the back, and they never gave any details about Reid (who was always the "suspect" or the "victim"). News coverage was steeply slanted toward the victim, in fact, I can't even recall the news including any testimony from anyone who was supportive of Smith. It went on for a year like this!

Within a year from that incident, there was the outright, cold-blooded murder of Office Brian Aselton of the East Hartford PD. On January 23, 1999, Officer Aselton responded to a call about a noise complaint in a building. Aselton poked around outside, and finding nothing, entered. Upon entering, a man came running down the hallway. Officer Aselton attempted to slow him down to question him. Instead of talking, the man pulled out a gun and shot Officer Aselton in the face, killing him.

The news coverage lasted until the murderer, Alex Sostre, was apprehended three days later. It was nowhere near the intensity of coverage for the Reid incident, and was not filled with emotional accounts from friends and family. The story was quickly swept under the rug, and when a Brain A. Aselton Memorial event happens every year, it only gets brief, stiff, and unemotional mention on the news, if it gets a mention at all. While Reid (and fellow felons or cop killers) get immortalized by perveted hero-worship in the media, Officer Aselton gets a stretch of highway named after him. The hero-worship I see about Aselton comes from his own friends and family, noticeably un-amplified by the media at large, compared to the goblins who get national attention amidst alarmist stories about rising rates of police brutality.

The difference between the reporting of these two events contributed to my total disgust for the popular media, which eventually lead me to simply stop watching TV starting four years ago. If there ever was a capital offense for which a quickly-delivered death penalty is justified, the murder of Officer Aselton is it. Guess who didn't receive the death penalty.

That's for reading. This has bothered me for many years, and I had to get that off my chest.


Offline elmer

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Re: Death penalty
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2006, 05:22:54 PM »
Perhaps it is not a deterrent, but that is not the same as saying it is a vacation. I don't think I'm on board with the idea that we should kill people who beat other people or extort money, either.

That isn't even close to what I said and you didn't address my point.
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Offline nabob

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Re: Death penalty
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2006, 11:35:17 PM »
Quote
It doesn't seem to be much of a deterent. I have to wonder how much of the "Rapes, beatings, killings, maimings, extortion" are being committed by the very type of lifer criminals that should be sumarily executed because they have nothing more to fear.

I replied it is no vacation, as others here have stated that it is. I then stated that I don't think we should kill people who have engaged in beatings or extortion. How does that address your point?

Simple.

You brought up the issue of the death penalty as a deterrent and specifically wondered about its usefulness in eliminating activities such as beatings and extortions by people who know they won't die for their crimes.

To me, executing someone for beating another person or extorting money from them seems a bit of an over-reaction.

Seems like I addressed your point directly.

Offline elmer

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Re: Death penalty
« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2006, 03:42:41 PM »
I said that "I have to wonder how much of the "Rapes, beatings, killings, maimings, extortion" are being committed by the very type of lifer criminals that should be sumarily executed because they have nothing more to fear." I did NOT say "we should kill people who beat other people or extort money". The people that I'm referring to should have gotten the death penalty for the killings they committed before they got there and before you go there I'm not referring to someone that caused someone's death by accident, not even if it was negligence. Just to be clear I'm referring to premeditated murder.

The point you didn't address was the part about how much of the crimes are being committed by lifers.

I'm a firm believer of the carrot and stick method. The problem with life in prison without parole is that there's no incentive to not commit crimes in the prison.
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Offline Dee

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Re: Death penalty
« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2006, 10:09:13 AM »
All I know is that this guys buddy testified that they weren't worried because they knew they wouldn't get "the chair". They already knew what prison life was like and when they got caught robbing a bank they knew they were going back. They had spend much of thier life behind bars, it hadn't stopped tham from trying the robbery. If NY has the death penelty they should use it, especially for those who kill a cop or a prison guard. I also don't see where DNA would affect this case, the policeman was shot from a distance. Shotgunner

When you say they should use the death penality ESPECIALLY when they kill a cop or prison guard, I would ask why especially? Don't get me wrong, I'm a retired Police Officer (20 years). I just don't understand why  a police officer or guard's life is would be worth more than anyone else's. Much ado is made of cop-killers but, I see ANY VICTIM's life worth the same as any member of my former profession, including my own life. An Oklahoma state representative once introduced a bill to the state where a killer would die by the same means as his victim. His example was if a perp took a claw hammer and beat someone to death then the State Of Oklahoma should take the same hammer and beat the perp to death. I thought it was a good idea. I wish my home state of Texas would speed the death mill up down here and get rid of the trash. Many of which are illegal mex's. JM2CW
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Offline jimster

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Re: Death penalty
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2006, 04:44:04 PM »
I think the death penalty is a deterent, for the person who gets convicted. There is no way that person will ever hurt anyone again, in or out of prison. 
In the State I live in, the law says I can defend myself...so the State basically says I can judge, convict, and carry out the death sentence on the spot if I think I or anyone else is in grave danger. But they don't let the State do it. Go figure.
The problem with prison is, we have to pay for it, and there is no absolute that the criminal will stay there forever, we already have had problems with people getting out and hurting others.
If an animal goes bad and is dangerous, we kill it to make sure nobody else gets hurt. I don't feel any different if a person acts like an animal. I am talking about hardened criminals who have raped and killed, or messed with kids.


Offline Mikey

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Re: Death penalty
« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2006, 03:23:52 AM »
And speaking of the death penalty, I read in the international news that Saddam Hussein was, ummm, 'swingin' to that tune..................Mikey.

Offline GRIMJIM

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Re: Death penalty
« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2006, 04:50:47 AM »
I think jimster has a valid point. Why are we spending our hard earned money to keep these guys around. Lethal injections? How much does that cost? Ooh, it's more humane. Tell that to the victim's family. Bullets are cheap and if you reload even cheaper.
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Offline billy_56081

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Re: Death penalty
« Reply #24 on: December 31, 2006, 05:11:20 AM »
   I have a cousin that works in the State hospital. He works with sex offenders and the criminally insane. After 20 years of this he has come to the conclusion there is no reforming these creeps and keeping them alive is a waste of money and a danger to other. He says kill em. I agree.

  And Wylie is right prison is way to nice a place. Feed em enough to keep em alive and let em thinkabout there sins.
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Offline ggeilman

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Re: Death penalty
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2007, 10:29:27 AM »
The death penalty has never been shown to be a deterent anywhere that it has been used. It is one thing only, societies revenge. Yet, there are some that deserve to die for their crimes. I am just not the one that can determine where that line should be drawn. For sure Saddam deserved to die, but the manner and timing of it will cause the unnecessary death of American lives. I could have been handled better and should have been delayed until after we had either left or had the situation under control.

Offline Dee

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Re: Death penalty
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2007, 01:11:20 PM »
The death penalty has never been shown to be a deterent anywhere that it has been used. It is one thing only, societies revenge. Yet, there are some that deserve to die for their crimes. I am just not the one that can determine where that line should be drawn. For sure Saddam deserved to die, but the manner and timing of it will cause the unnecessary death of American lives. I could have been handled better and should have been delayed until after we had either left or had the situation under control.

Well, I disagree about it not being a determent, and society's revenge. I see it the same way as shooting a dog that bite's for no reason. Perhaps you should sit across the table as I have, and listen to a man give you a confession of raping a six month old baby, and justifying it at the same time. There were instances in my career when I would have head shot the sorry &#*^** myself if the judge had so ordered it.

As far as Saddam deserving to die. I suppose he did, I am still wondering why it was our place to go and arrest him. The timing of his execution I believe was very bad, and it's handling, or should I say mis-handling, has made him a martyr to many. That's what happens when one heathen executes another. As far as American's picking up the tab AGAIN. My Son's unit (82nd Airborne) got 15 hours notice and shipped out BACK TO THAT HELL HOLE this morning. This will make 2 trips to Iraq and one to Afganistan in 15 months.
So I guess we are 50% in agreement. That's not bad.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Dee

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Re: Death penalty
« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2007, 10:44:55 AM »
That TM7 is most certainly a valid argument. When lawyers are involved, there is always a possiblity of a screwing. And prosecuters are lawyers.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline jimster

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Re: Death penalty
« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2007, 05:39:08 PM »
I totally disagree that the death penalty is not a deterent. It's impossible for a dead person to rape or murder again, ever.
I don't see how this can be argued. There is no way a dead person can kill or hurt or toture anyone again.
I do think there is a valid point on making sure they are guilty without a doubt. I don't lke cases that are built by a prosecuter either. there has to be no doubt at all...then go for it...it's a deterent for sure.
I have never once seen a person put to death become a future problem.
But I have seen where they get out of prison at some point, and kill again.
You didn't see a whole lot of horse steeling back in the old West, yet horse were everywhere.
We all know why...being hung was a deterent....period.
 

Offline ronangelia7

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Re: Death penalty
« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2007, 04:47:41 AM »


         It seems some of the States have a problem intiating the death Penality. To bad you cant send those cop killers,baby rapers down here to Texas. We have em lined up,execute them all the time.Nobody ever executed has been a repeat offender that I know of. Here if a crimenal does a capital crime,chances are they are going to Lethel inject them. Maybe as a deterrant we should do it in public like the old west,just a thought. I pray that no one innocent ever gets on death row here in Texas..I have heard of stories were a criminal was fighting,cussing God,flipping the officers the finger had and to be dragged to the death chamber. Makes you wonder what kind sick person they were.I feel for the victims ,their families and people that have to deal with these sickos.