? How many have shot in SD or fully pulled in Self Defense

[vicspank]

Being a NRA Personal Protection Ins.I'm just curious,How many have accually had to pull or have shot in self defense.I like to use this info for classes.I'm not talking about letting your firearm accidently show,I'm talking leaglly fully pull on an assailent.Please tell details.Thanks

                                                     vicspank

[S.S.]

Are you talking as a Civilian?
Or in the line of Duty for your class.
Military duty?
Law Enforcement?
Do you need it broken down into specifics?
To answer your question though, Yes I have had to.
Law enforcement duty... How many do you need !
My duty weapon was out of its holster at least once a shift.
It may have been just to check a building that had been broken into
or something though. I have been shot twice and stabbed once
so toward the end of my service, I took no chances.
I can not discuss my military duty though.
The last time I pulled my carry weapon was a couple of Winters ago
I was at a local 24 hour store at about 1 o'clock  in the morning.
I was in the back of the line at a checkout register and a guy wearing
a Ski mask came through the door of the store. He milled around near the
shopping carts and then came quickly towards the registers. I slipped
my snub nose out of it's holster and Holding in my right hand hid the muzzle
end in my front pants pocket. He grabbed a buggy that was in the front
of the register turned toward the right side of the isle and proceeded to
start his shopping. About 10 steps down the isle he pulled off the mask.
I do not know what his intentions were, but he must have thought better of it.
I simply slipped the snub all the way into my pocket
paid for my stuff and left. No one but me ever knew I had it.
Several other people in the store apparently thought he was up to no good
too. I could tell by the looks on their faces.
Another time, While responding to a pretty bad domestic disturbance.
A fella' stepped out of the house next door to the one I was responding to
and let me have it with a shotgun. I replied in turn and we really didn't have any
desire to shoot each other any more so he went on his way in one direction and
I took cover until help arrived. Come to find out, he was robbing the house
next door I guess he thought I was there for him.
He was never caught.. It all happened so fast I could not get any kind of
description at all other than "A short white guy" !  That didn't narrow it down much?

[K.K]

Great question.  Thank God I've never had to draw on a person.  I did use a firearm in self-defense from a feral dog that tried to attack me while walking in the woods.  Every time that I tried to retreat, he would rush, gnash his teeth, and circle me looking for the right time to pounce. I fired a warning shot at his feet, but to no avail.  I had no recourse but to shoot him.  I believe that attackers can come on four legs, as well as two and that a person has the right to defend themselves from either, and I intend to do so.

[vicspank]

S,Sumner,thank you for your time for the reply.LEO,Military(one on one) we are all human,I'm sure when it comes to pulling a firearm,you do it for yourself and others,not for the job coz the trick is to go home at the end of the shift.I teach Personal Protection along with Basic Pistol.The one's that take PP,already have there CCW as required.I have ALMOST had to pull 3 times but the situation's disolved.I have all the info in the world from books and I'm always looking for situations to refer to.I have talked to several shooting victims that had no protection but I have found few that are willing to talk about there experiances in a gun fight.Such as what went through your head,did you just want to survive,did you automaticly remember your training ,did your thoughts turn on auto piliot,Do you remeber seeing your sites,or point shooting etc.Thank you very much,It is a great lesson for my students and every one that reads this board.

                                  vicspank

[S.S.]

A long time ago, I went through the same training that Mosaad
operatives did and we learned some really fast techniques for sending bullets toward the target.
We were taught to shoot "Over the sights" which was more instinctive than anything else.
I wish I could relate some more of the incidents to you, but I can't.
Some People think that Anti-Terrorism stuff is a pretty new thing, I can assure you that the Fight
has been going on for a long time. One thing that I hear a lot is that in a shoot, don't shoot situation
is that your training takes over. That is true to a point. But it doesn't take long before human nature takes over and the survival instinct completely takes over. I can remember every situation I have ever been in with the exception of one. No training kicked it, Fight for survival only.
Other people in the Unit had to fill in the Blanks and some of it they will not tell me to this day.
The aftermath was a terrible thing to see, and I can only assume it was from me.
I guess my mind just blacked it out.
I would tell every one to do everything in their power and then some to keep from ever having to use their weapon. You can be trained by the best in the world on how to use that weapon,
but no one can train you on having to deal with it when you do. No matter how bad of people it is that you are having to confront, it is still another human being. No matter how tough one thinks they are, sooner or later it gets to you. And it hurts in a way that cannot be explained...

[Dave in WV]

Several years ago my wife and I went out for supper. It was early in December and it was raining. When we left the restaurant and walked to our car we noticed a guy giving us too much attention. He was standing at a payphone and just watching us not saying a word into the phone. I had my SIG P220 in my fanny pack holster and my jacket was open so I slid my hand into the holster and gripped it for a draw if necisary. I didn't expose my gun but as soon as I slid my hand into the holster the guy lost interest in us as he immeadiately turned his back to us. After we passed him (giving him a wide berth) he turned his back to us again. We got to our car and left without incident. Tell your classes IMO I made a mistake. I should have backed out of the incident, retreated to the restaurant, and called the police. If I had it to do over again that's what I'd do. IMO grab your firearm but go to a safe area if you have one to go to.

[S.S.]

Great advice Dave.
Leave the area without incident if there is any way possible.

[Dand]

No but I had an interesting event late one night.  I had just finished cleaning my rifle and it was laying on a chair in front of me pointed at the front door while reinserted the bolt. Suddenly a total stranger walked in the door - we usually don't lock our doors in remote Alaska. He saw the rifle, froze for a second, said "oops wrong house" spun and left very quickly.

Only time I've ever had someone walk into my house. He might not have meant any harm but I felt it was amazing timing the way it worked out. At the time Dutch Harbor was pretty wild and wooly.

[PaulS]

I am in the habit of taking walks at night. I walk a faily standard route and rarely even see other people. There are many houses around but nobody much out after dark. On those rare occasions that I do meet someone we exchange pleasentries and continue walking. The path is at one point on the edge of a wide field. One evening I was walking as I usually do and noticed a horse that was grazing on the grass. As I walked between the horse and the house it became agitated. The horse approached me in a very threatening manner, rearing and kicking with its front feet as I quickly backed away from it. I had my gun out and was about to kill or be killed when the horse reached the end of a long tether. With a sigh of relief I put my gun away and as I looked around I saw in the corral next to the house a very young colt. I had just walked between mom and her baby and thanks to a tether I didn't spend the next year eating horse meat. That is all I remember thinking - If I had to shoot that horse I was going to have to eat it because I was surely going to have to pay for it.
Other than that one time I have never had to draw my gun. As long as I stay away from areas that I don't feel comfortable in I should never have a problem. I always carry one but it is more with the idea it might save me from dogs or the possible rabbid animal rather than two legged rats. in thirty-five years of carrying that is a pretty good score.

[RollTide]

Thank God I have never had to draw my weapon or fire on another human being.  I think S. Sumner's comment should be mandatory reading for anyone who carries a weapon for defense.

I would tell every one to do everything in their power and then some to keep from ever having to use their weapon. You can be trained by the best in the world on how to use that weapon,
but no one can train you on having to deal with it when you do. No matter how bad of people it is that you are having to confront, it is still another human being. No matter how tough one thinks they are, sooner or later it gets to you. And it hurts in a way that cannot be explained...

I will relate the incident that prompted me to get my concealed carry permit.  I was on my way hunting before 5:00 AM one morning.  I stopped at a local convenience store to fill my thermos with coffee.  I happened to park right in front of the door, and after fumbling around with my thermos for a second, I glanced up to see a very nervous looking individual standing several feet in front of the cashier, who I thought was way too young to be working midnights in that part of town.  The cashier had a look of stark terror on her face and kept alternately staring at me then staring at the guy in front of her.  Then I noticed that the only other vehicle in the lot was parked out of sight from the cashier at the edge of the building, and there were 2 very agitated, rough looking individuals in the truck staring daggers through me with very menacing body language.

I sat there in my car, hoping that if they were up to no good, my presence there as a witness would make them leave.  Minutes seemed like hours as I thought about what I should do. The man in the store was not shopping and was not checking out, he was simply standing in front of the cashier and ocassionally casting a very agitated glance my way.  This was before cell phones, so I could not call for help without leaving.  The police station was only a few blocks away, but I felt increasingly sure with each passing minute that these people meant at very least rob the place and maybe worse, harm the cashier.  I felt in the 5 or 10 minutes it would take to get to the police station and return, the cashiers life may be ended.  I thought about just walking inside, but being unarmed, I figured if they meant to harm the cashier, they would just do the same to me.  I had a wife and small children, so I thought to walk into a possible armed robbery as a second victim was not a good thing.  I thought about just driving away, but the cashier just kept looking at me with scared eyes, almost begging eyes.  I did not know what to do.  Maybe another customer would come, but this odd standoff was now approaching 10 minutes, and I was not sure what the 2 guys outside or the guy inside might do at any minute.  If I got my shotgun out of the back of the car, that might provoke something really bad as these people might feel I was about to do something crazy myself.  Suddenly I remembered that I had put my 9mm and a couple of clips in the car so I could do a little target shooting with it after hunting that day, but it was out of reach in the back of the station wagon.

I finally decided to go to the back of the car, to pretend to be fumbling in my day pack, and to get the 9mm (after I loaded it with my hands still in the back of the car).  It was still dark, and I am sure the guys suspected something, but they could not be sure what I was doing or what I had with me.  I kept turned so that no one could see the gun.  I walked into the store and went straight to the coffee makers which served as a barrier between me and the man still standing in front of the cashier.    From this position, I put my hand on the pistol, but did not draw it.  I pretended to be fumbling with the coffee, but did not take my other hand off the gun.  Another VERY VERY tense few minutes passed, and finally the guy in the store bolted out the door and into the waiting truck.  They sped away.  The cashier informed we that it was the 3rd time that night that the same guy had been in the store, always acting the same way, never buying anything, and always leaving reluctantly when other customers came in.  I told her she should lock the doors and go home, even it it meant her job, because to stay may mean her life if the trio returned.  She locked the doors and phoned for help.  I decided then and there to get a carry permit in case I should ever be confronted with a similar situation.  I felt that a robbery was prevented, and possibly even a life saved that early morning. Who knows?  The expense and hassle of carrying concealed legally for a lifetime (although I did not like open carry in public places, though it was legal to do so) would be well worth it if just one person like that was helped in the future.  How could I have lived with myself if I had just turned my back on that young girl and the worst had happened?  I had just picked up my 9mm on the way out the door that morning, just an after thought really, but I am so glad I did.  So is that cashier.

Roll Tide

[sjones]

I've had to pull it one time although thankfully I didn't have to use it.I pulled up behaind a man in a pickup waiting to pull out of a strip center onto the main road.I set behaind him for about 2 minutes and there wasn't a car coming from either direction,so I beeped at hime one time and out he came flying from the truck with a bat in his hands and murder in his eyes,hollering and screaming,as he got closer to my car,I pulled my 45 and pointed it right at him.By this time he was only about 5 feet from my drivers window.I told him to stop in a loud voice.Well,when he saw the barrel looking right at him,he really put on the brakes.I told him if he was smart he would get back in his truck  and leave,which he did.Then I had to hold up trafic for a few minutes while I calmed down,but the person in the car behind me din't honk or anything.I wonder why. sj

[Old Griz]

We had several robberies in our neighborhood where a carload of thugs would follow a woman home from a store, pull up behind her, blocking her in, and then rob her at gun point. My wife always calls just before she gets home so I can help her carry the groceries in. One night as she was pulling into the parking lot, I noticed a car that was following her with four men inside. I was out of sight at first, and they were coming on in behind her. I stationed myself behind a pickup with the engine between me and the strange car. They were looking right at her. Then one of the men saw me behind the truck, and maybe he was smart enough to realize the hand  on my hip, was firmly wrapped around my holstered Glock .45. He punched the driver on the shoulder and said something, and then they all looked over at me. The car came to a screeching halt, backed up fast, and was outta there. My wife looked at the car and said, "They meant to do me harm didn't they." "Yes, Dear." I didn't have to draw, but they knew I had a weapon (or at least thought I did), and that was enough in that case.

[ShadowMover]

Over 40 years ago I worked the night shift at a gas station here in a big city in the South West. To give you an idea how long ago it was, I wore a white uniform, and we cleaned all the windows. The owner didn't allow guns at work, but he wasn't the one closing the place down at 2AM and putting the money in the drop safe.  Anyway, as I had shut off all the lights except the one in the office and had all the pumps off, and read,  and was putting the money in the safe,  a guy knocked on the glass door. I told him I was closed. He then tried to force the door while I had all the money on the desk. I pulled the my Ruger 22 semi-auto from it's holster and jacked a round into it while it was pointed at the ceiling. One look at that and he was gone into the night. I never pointed it at him, but it changed his mind. He didn't even have a car. I never mentioned this to the boss.

I think the most dangerous job today might be a convenience store clerk, or a city cab driver.

[S.S.]

It is really strange the kinds of things that stick in your mind from  encounters
like this. It is the smell of Garlic? There was a small Cafe that had an entrance from the alley.
I think everything they served had garlic in it. I can still smell that Garlic if I think about it just a little.
Another time it was Freshly cut grass. That was a another terrible day, and I guess that was the only
pleasant thing to be remembered from it. I like the smell of freshly mowed grass.
I guess thats wierd, I don't know.

[RollTide]

S. Sumner,
That is not strange at all. It is a documented fact of psychology that scents are some of the strongest associations that stir recollection. 

Roll Tide

[R. Tillery]

As a cop, I was NEVER hesitant in drawing my weapon WHEN JUSTIFIED. The only time I ever fired a shot, was when off-duty. I was jogging. I had my issued G22 with me when a 100# Rott charged me. One Federal 180 gr. HydraShok was all it took.

[kyote]

4Xs.........

[Dee]

As ssumner stated, civilian or L.E.? I used my pistol twice involving one bad guy on the first and two on the second.Numerous bad guys made the right decision on many occasions over a 20 year career while staring down the barrel of it. I once was hit twice in the back before I could fall by a drunk shooting bird shot so I was not afraid to pull it or use it.

[vicspank]

There ya go!This is what it is all about.There is more info in this one question that can save a life or take one than I have seen on most boards.Doesn't matter if your a LEO or civilian,Were still human.The fact is,for every 20 people that tell you what the best bullet is,or what is the best gun,only one of that 20 has acually had to use it.As I said before,I've had three code red's but it was disolved before I pulled.Ten years after a self defense shooting,no one will care what caliber or make of gun was used,they will only remember who lived.Im not talking about animals,I'm talking about shooting another human to save a human.Most do not realize how heavy on the mind this is.If you do not have it in you,don't carry.
                                   
                                                           Vicspank
                        NRA Certified Pistol,Personal Protection,RSO Instructor   

[scout34]

My wife and I got our CCWs at the same class and she has told me that the difference in her awareness is incredible.  Whereas she used to walk around in "condition white", now she is always in "yellow."

Once she told me of a strange looking man she saw at the mall.  He was standing alone by the doors to the parking lot, holding a teddy bear.  Something about the man struck her as "wrong", so she gave him a wide berth and continued walking to her car.  She had our young daughter with her at the time and I think it was this fact that made her wary of the man.  Anyway, as she was installing our daughter into her car seat, she noticed this same man walking down the row of cars towards her.  When he was about 4 cars away she stopped what she was doing, gave him her full attention and put her hand on the butt of her Taurus 85, nestled in her purse.

The man gave her one nervous look and walked on.  When my wife drove out of the parking lot he was just standing around and had not gotten into a car.  Who knows what his intentions were.

I just wish I could get her to carry an M4 in the back of the car.

For all you soldiers out there.  Don't let your wives put those magnet ribbons on the back of the car that say, The other half of my heart is in Iraq", or "Keep Daddy safe."  Nice sentiment, but a neon sign for any nut-jobs on the prowl for a free lunch.  I made my wife ditch hers.  I know how she feels about me, no need to tell the world.

[Matt]

Well I have had to pull several times over the years but thank goodness I was carrying a gun that was intimidating enough that they person decided it was not worth dying over.

Pull and Shoot, yes once… It was back in 1997 I came home to find my front door open. I had a room mate at the time so at first did not think much of it. I went into the house and to her room to find it ransacked and then proceeded to my room when the person emerged from my bed room. I stopped pulled my Glock and took aim. Told them to stop they threw some items at me that they had in their hand and I pulled the trigger. I saw the bullet hit the target (left shoulder). The person managed to get the back door open and escaped into a nearby wooded area.

Called the police they came out wanted to take my gun but being on the fire dept I managed to keep my gun. Never heard anything on it so I guess they never found the guy.

Matt

[canon6]

I have been both in the US Army and spent twenty+ years in Law Enforcement so the answer is yes,and yes and since I became a lowly CCW the answer is yes,in defense of my life and of others   Doug

[hemiram]

Hi everybody..

I pulled my gun three times, never shot though.

The first was when two morons cut me off and after I honked the horn at them wouldn't let me pass. When we came to
a traffic light and stopped, they got out and took aluminum baseball bats out of the trunk. I pulled my Dan Wesson Model 15-2 and made sure they saw it. As soon as they did, they got back in their car, and took off. They called the police, saying I waved a gun at them, "For no reason". The cops came to my house and asked me what happened, and I told them. The cops said that the two guys said I pointed the gun at them "for no reason", and I said to the cop, "Then how come I know there are two aluminum baseball bats in their car?" They checked and busted them for filing a false report. 

The second time was when I was checking the parking lot where I worked, and there was a pickup with a camper shell, and the back window was open. I figured someone had broken in. When I looked in, I saw 2 pairs of eyes glowing in the dark, and I knew there were two big dogs inside. I backed up, and two German Shepherds came out, and one of them had his head down and his hair was up on his back, and he started walking towards me. I pulled my gun, and said, "No, get back!" He kept coming, and I cocked it, and he froze. I said, "GET BACK IN THE TRUCK!", and finally, he thought about it, and they got back in. I went in, and found the owner and explained he couldn't do that, his dogs were eventually going to hurt someone.

The third time, I was at work, and I went out to the parking lot to check it, and there was a very odd 7' tall guy, dressed in fatigues, talking to himself. OK.. I called my partner and watched the guy doing karate type moves for a couple of minutes until my partner came out. When he saw my partner, he started calling him some odd name, and began getting all upset. I went around a couple of cars and got behind him. He didn't seem to even know I was there. My partner told him to calm down, and that got him even angrier, and suddenly, he tried to kick my partner in the head. My partner took his baton out, and the whackjob said in an amazingly high pitched, Michael Jackson type voice, "You can't hurt me with that thing!" and tried to kick him again several times. I pulled my gun and grabbed his collar, and jammed the gun into the back of his head and said, "I can hurt you with this!" He instantly froze and said, "Ok, ok, ok, don't kill me!" over and over again. We cuffed him up and took him to the security office. We found out he had warrants, and about an hour later, the cops picked him up.

Probably the scariest incident was when a guy wearing a trenchcoat refused to pay in the restaurant one night. I got called and told him he had to pay, or go to jail for defrauding an inkeeper. He refused again, and stuck his left hand into his coat pocket. I said, "Dont!", and unsnapped my gun. I never pulled it. A woman eating went crazy screaming, "Oh god, please don't shoot him!" over and over again. The guy finally paid, and left. The woman complained to the bosses the next morning that I had "Waved a gun all over the place!". Lucky for me, the security cameras backed up my side of the story, clearly showing me NOT pulling my gun at all. The dialogue was totally garbled, except for me yelling at the crazy woman, "I haven't even pulled my gun lady, so calm your a** down!" That woman yelling made the whole thing a circus.

[Dusty Miller]

Some people get ready to go beserko at the slightest hint of conflict.  I think they must've been raised in a violent home, its a pity.

[S.S.]

Not necessarily a violent home, But maybe constantly being in violent surroundings.
Dealing with the worst of society day in and day out can begin to wear on you.
Wrong or right you begin to look at every one with a suspicious eye.  I will be the first to admit I
have this problem and it is almost impossible to shake. circumstances sometimes force us to do terrible things and no matter how justified people say you were, it makes you feel no better.
But , unfortunately, The slightest hint of conflict is the only warning you get before the conflict actually breaks out. You must be prepared to react instantly or you will loose. Sometimes the speed of your reaction is the only advantage you may have. But ,Yes, I have to agree it is a pity that we cannot trust our fellow man.

[andy262]

I have had one time coming home from work 2 am. No other cars on the road except me.  This was about 2-3 months ago, I have a springfield micro compact .45 on me at all times unless im at work because I do alot of welding ect.....   Anyways back to telling you what happened.  I was driving home down the highway rt255 in st. marys, PA.  When I stopped at Keystone gas station to fill my blazer up and get something to drink.  I was in the back of the store getting a pepsi.  I remeber this like it was yesterday.  I approach the counter to notice two guys where ski masks with a knife in there hand.  I had my springfield in my holster, I ducked down and unsnapped it. the isles where close to the counter and one isle was kinda offset so i was able to get up behind the one.  I was only 21 at the time and scared shitless.  I pull my gun and pull the one by the back of the neck and tell the other guy to drop the knife. He said go F#c* yourself. I said if you dont you will be dragging you buddys dead body of the property. It seemed like hours went by before he put the knife down but it was only 2 minutes.  The cashier called the cops and they where arrested.  That is the first time i have ever had to pull my gun on any thing and I pray to god I dont ever have to do it again.  I did not feel in control at the time even though I did have the upper hand. It is something you never know will be coming and it will catch up by suprise.

[Dusty Miller]

It may sound cold to you guys but I don't think I would've gotten involved unless an actual attack took place.  Too many things can go wrong and the good guy ends up being the bad guy.  On top of that there's the "I ain't go no dog in this fight" aspect.  The temptation to be a good Samariten (sp?) can get you into deep doo-doo in a hurry and a criminal or civil jury can be less then sympathetic to your actions. 

[darrell8937]

I would rather spend the rest of my life in Jail than watch as some scumbag slashes a store clerk for 63 dollars. I beleive the safety and lives of others are more important than my own. In the moments you hesitate, people can die!  Why would a fireman risk his life for others, he has no dog in the hunt! Why would a cop risk his life, they face excseeive scrunity every day, He has no dog in this hunt! Some are just cut from a diffrent cloth, We had a incident in Maine a couple years ago when a man tried to force a girl into his car, A bystander saw something very suspicious and drew his weapon. until the cops got there. He was a convicted sex offender! The girl was safe, He had no dog in the hunt! He could have kept his distance. got the plate number, and just called the police. Maybe she would have been found before she was raped, maybe not! I bet the parents were glad he was cut from a diffrent cloth! I have had but just one situation to date, It was Nato Site 5 in Hanu Germany(forgive the spelling) This is where tactical nuclear artillery weapons and chemical weapons were stored during the cold war, I was part of an augmentation force! We were called out on early one morning! They said it was not a drill and to lock and load! Beleive me, a soldier does not lock and load anywhere but the range and a situation like this! Period! I was a m60 gunner, I was guarding a high avenue of approach, a curvy access road. We heard a bit of gunfire, about 5 rounds, seemed pretty close. They neve got thru the woods and made it to my postion. The MP'S and german police weer able to stop them. Some stupid group trying to make a point with a hunting rifle, They gave up when they realized how serious everyone was. It is a awful feeling to hear shot so close and know someone is out to harm you! I think my Assistant gunner was a bit shook up! I acted like I wasn't but certanly had butterflies in my stomach.

[35Rem]

I think anyone will tell you not to get within reach of an assailent with a knife.  You are much better off with space between you.
The clerk was more than likely behind a counter, a barrier between the two.

I would think that it could have been handled from a distance, but I WAS NOT THERE. 

Hopefully no one ever has to pull a weapon in defense, but they will.

[shotgun31]

I was on active duty, Navy, early 70's and our ship had docked at a port in the Phillippines.  There had been several officers badly beaten at the base during the previous couple of months.  The base commander, not wishing any trouble, passed the word to the fleet that under no circumstances was any one to go ashore armed or they would be court martialed.

Our ship was docked about a mile from the Officers Club, and my friends had gone there for the evening.  I had duty, got off at 9:00PM and I went ashore to the O Club for dinner.   It was to be a long, dark walk along the piers.  I was in uniform.

I took my M39 9MM and slipped it into my waistband;  mexican carry and put on my jacket.   

About 1/2 way 3 young men in civilian clothes came out of a stand of bushes near the put-put golf course;   one of them had a golf club in his hand.  They spread out on the road in front of me.  Now they were about 30 feet away and from the way they were looking at me, I was really uncomfortable;.  They were confronting me.  I pulled my M-39 and shouted "at ease".  They were startled!  I told them to move out of the way.  When they didn't, and took another step toward me, I shouted again that I'd shoot and pointed square at the chest of the guy with the golf club.  I kept shouting. 

They backed off, and back into the thicket from where they came.

The reality of it was, if it had gone on about 10 more seconds I'd have probably gone head first off the pier into the water.  I'm a very good swimmer and could probably swim faster than they could. 

But, the beatings stopped, suddenly.