Author Topic: Home Defense Options  (Read 3708 times)

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Offline Mainspring

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« on: April 14, 2003, 07:57:16 AM »
I have no experience with either of these, but what about the Ruger line http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAProdResults?function=famid&famid=20 or the Glock carbine conversion http://stores.yahoo.com/gunlocators/gloccarconun.html ?
The key to winning a gun fight is to take your time...quickly


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Offline JeffG

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« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2003, 02:30:01 PM »
If you are truly interested in preventing overpenetration, stay away from pistol caliber carbines.  The .223, because of its rotational (in)stability, and frangible bullets, is a MUCH better chioce.  Tests have shown that .223 penetrates way less common building materials that say, a 40 cal.  Look at it this way, why do varmint shooters shoot what they do???  Massive terminal ballistics and wounding properties, and no ricochet or penetration problems...try ir for yourself...just my two cents. :D
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Offline DEPUTY

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« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2003, 02:41:27 AM »
cknight89, jeff is 100%correct years ago i had a class in cook county! with 223 jedi master chudwin! and will i gunsite when a instructor told me that a 9mm ar is not an urban rifle! aghh, knew it was going to be a bad week!
anyhow i switched mypatrol gun to a my colt 223 shorty,loaded with winchers 62 psp ammo! awesome, now i carry horandy tap, right now iam also looking rbcd ammo out of texas as well, my current home gun is a colt 223 ar with a 16" barrel, pre ban with a surefire system on i it,and a redi mag with 2 30 rnders loaded up with haorandy tap 55grain ammo and a spare 20 rnder of ball ammo  in the night stand, get the 223

Offline DEPUTY

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« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2003, 11:26:03 AM »
cknight89, the trouble with red dots are the battires, i have a trijicon reflex unit on one of the set ups for more serious work, and loaded with 62 winchester psp it is a force to be delt with! accurate enough to get hits on ipsc targets at 200yds! also i do not put optics on my house gun no need to with proper training,

Offline JeffG

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« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2003, 02:03:27 PM »
Amen, Deputy!  Gadgets are fun, but can go bad on you...spend time at the range with good ammo.  It's rarely really that dark, Trijicons are a good choice. :D
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Offline Nobade

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« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2003, 01:47:28 AM »
Just a reminder to folks using .223 indoors: wear good electronic ear muffs if you go out to investigate trouble. You'll hear better than normal and not wreck your ears if you have to use it. One shot from a shorty .223 indoors will make you sorry if you're not protected.
"Give me a lever long enough, and a place to stand, and I'll break the lever."

Offline daddywpb

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« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2003, 03:01:42 AM »
How about a lever action carbine in 357 Mag, 44 Mag or 45 Colt. A Marlin or Winchester carbine would be an excellent choice.

Offline DEPUTY

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« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2003, 06:59:56 PM »
i like the 357 mag as a home gun, it can be stoked with a ton of 38 specials and brought up to the mag levels without all the blast of the mags, i have a 30/30 i use as a rual cabin gun with ashley ghost rings, amd a sure fire light mounted to it ! nice  set up, the mag 357 would be a great choice to back up your 357 revolver as well, share the same ammo makes for good practice as well  and interchange ablity in the field(camping etc....)

Offline boneguru

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another possibility
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2003, 09:01:07 AM »
kel tec makes the sub 2000 in 9mm and .40sw, the caliber is pistol but you mentioned the possibility of frangibles, they are certainly made for pistol caliber as well, that was their first raison detre. the nice thing about the 2000 is the availabilty of using major manufacturers mags, what works in your pistol works in your FOLDING carbine. R
SUA SPONTE

Offline teamnelson

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« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2003, 09:24:16 AM »
In my mind, carbines make the most logical choice of SD weapon, especially if your wife or youngster (properly trained of course) have to do it themselves. Your wife may love a .50 AE in each fist, but mine is not that enthusiastic.

The .223 is great, but how about 7.62x39 (Mini-30)?

The ATF recently apprehended Snoop D's "security" crew, most of which were wearing Level IIIA or lower vests (according to the 'net). I'm not going to imply that his crew were thugs, but it demonstrates to me the availability of body armor to all sorts of folks. SD plans will vary, but mine would include penetration of Level IIIA out to 200 yds by a weapon my wife can shoot. If they get inside that, its time to trip the claymores!  :grin:
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Offline SAWgunner

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« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2003, 02:04:06 PM »
Stick to the 12 Guage with 2 3/4 inch Federal Tactical 00 Buck.  I have more guns than you can fit in the trunk of a midsize car, and I keep my Winchester 1300 Defender with a Surefire light forend a side saddle with six extra shells and a Wilson Combat sling.  My M4 Carbine sits in a safe with most of my other weapons.  You are not going to need a Carbine to take 100 meter shots in your home.  Even if they are wearing level III body armor (You must be pretty damn important), you will put them on their butts.  No one walks away from a 12 guage, unless The good Lord has a purpose for them after prison.
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Offline teamnelson

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« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2003, 06:51:34 AM »
SAWGunner - Heck, I'm not important at all! My work draws sophisticated enemies though, and I'd hate to have it spill over to the house. That's true of lots of folks in public/private sector. I heartily agree with the 12Ga (nice rig you described), but my wife is a petite little thing and can't use it. She's not into shooting either, so I need something a novice can handle - light, low recoil, with large capacity. Can't wait until my son can handle a 12Ga!

Shame you can't use the SAW for home defense - nice light carry (relatively), and flexible feeding. I humped an M60, met the E3, touched a 240G, but really liked the 249. Course, when I first got an arms room, we still had "Grease Guns" in inventory!

Semper Fi!
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Offline SAWgunner

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« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2003, 09:11:00 AM »
Heh heh, that would be something else to have a SAW for home defense.   My wife isn't that big, either, but she handles the Federal Tactical 00 Buck loads really well.  They do not kick as much as a normal round.  Regardless of what you buy, she must practice with it.  Here is how I got my wife to shoot.  You probably won't like it, but it works.  I started making deals with her that I would watch a lifetime movie or something of that nature (give her a day off, and clean-cook and do all house chores myself) if she would go to the range with me every few weeks.  Eventually she started to enjoy shooting, and now I don't have to watch anymore Lifetime movies.  heh heh  :-)   Marksmanship is the key, and this is just a suggestion on how to get her to shoot.  

If she is recoil sensitive, I would look into a pistol caliber carbine.  If you use the right ammo (such as the .40 S&W 155 grain Federal HydraShoks or 155 grain Speer GoldDots) they are very effective, and rarely overpenetrate.  I personally wouldn't like to get shot with anything, but some rounds are more effective at stopping someone than others.
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Offline teamnelson

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Gun fer yer wives!
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2003, 10:14:32 AM »
I like the idea of a carbine in a pistol round. To be honest, I was looking into an Marlin 1894C for her & the kids. Let 'em practice with .38, etc. Short pull, easy operation. Keep a hot .38 or a .357 in it at home. Makes a handy club when it runs out. I guess the capacity would be okay - if she needed more than 9 (?) in the tube, then it would be a situation that drew public attention anyway. I realize there are 9mm and 40s&w options out there in semi-autos; my personal history with levers has been better than  semi-autos.

Appreciate all the good advice I've found here and other places on GreyBeard about getting wives involved in shooting!
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Offline DEPUTY

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« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2003, 05:24:06 AM »
sawgunner, wrong! we had a shooting here wear the person took a blast from a 12 gauge at 13 feet and lived so dont tell me that junk! also the 223 has a great stopping record, and any serious student  who knows  the workings of both systems and there proper use! and load selections  will take the 223 over the 12 and why a winchester it is a inferior gun to the the 870 and the mossberg! to many noted troubles with it in real situations of the real world, also i have a million sheets of info showing the overpenetraion of the pistol caliber carbines, hence why do you think most tac teams switched to ar weapons systems and the ar with the right ammo selection has less pentration than the 12 gauge  and less pentration than the pistol caliber carbines and is very effective in a cqb and as a home defense weapon

Offline SAWgunner

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« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2003, 09:53:05 AM »
In your world, yes, the 5.56 is very effective, but not in mine.  We have to use FMJ rounds.  About the shotgun, Sure, there are people that can get up after being shot from anything under a 20mm cannon.  I have heard first hand stories of an Afghani getting up after getting hit by a .50 BMG round, so I don't buy into the whole idea of "It doesn't work because...".  As far as the Winchester goes, it is a pump, and when is the last time you have ever seen a Pump shotgun malfunction?    Mine patterns perfectly.  If a pump shotgun patterns good, and dosen't fall apart, there really is no difference between them (except for the bells and whistles).  If you forget, the Winchester has a recoil assisted pump, and I can vouch that it will shoot three rounds in less than a second.  Ever heard of an 870 doing that?  My 870 will stay in the closet until Duck season, and then it will ride second to my Auto 5.
Nosce Hostem
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Offline DEPUTY

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« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2003, 04:48:32 PM »
nothing personal but i have seen 2 1300 winchesters go dead at a major shooting school before lunch on the 3rd day, of class it might be a good home gun  if it isnt to abused!  as far as the speed thing yes i have a friend and fellow officer who is a master blaster from the old second chance shoots and top ipsc 3 gunner  that can with a pump 870 remington  get 8 shots off in around 3 seconds or better i think his last time was 8 pins cleared in 2.8 seconds! with his!  my life isnt worth risking on a chance of it failing  870 rem vang comp in my rack! next ot my bed a colt 223 shorty  with a redi mag, sure fire system  loaded with 75 grain tap ammo!

Offline SAWgunner

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« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2003, 05:01:43 PM »
Come on now, I don't take things personal.  I abuse the crap out of my utility weapons.  My 1300 has close to 1800 rounds through it since I bought it last August on Mid-tour leave.  I have shot the sh#* out of this thing, and she still loves me.  I stopped shooting my Benelli M1 because it was too easy to shoot (I spit too many shells through it, and it wasn't that fun to shoot anymore, he hheh).  I am very well defended in my household, and I ahv ealot of experience with weapons, so I wouldn't make a stupid decision.  

SSG G.
Nosce Hostem
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Offline Desperado357

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« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2003, 05:13:42 PM »
even though they are obsolete and expensive, i would realy like to own a tommy gun with a 100 round drum and ave the fingered pistol grip on the front instead of the standard straight one. that would be a badarse home defence gun atleast for a civilian that would be worried about burglers not green berets. if it killed in 1920's then it cna kill today

Offline Desperado357

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« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2003, 05:23:22 PM »
ohh yea and did you realy hear this? if the afghany did get back up then he must have nicked his ear or somethin becasue a 50 BMG (Big Motherf*ckin Gun), if aimed at your shoulder will probly blow the upper half of your body to pieces

Offline SAWgunner

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« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2003, 05:33:26 PM »
Not really, we use .50 BMG ouns for anti ordenance and anti material use.  A .50 cal will cut through a man without causing anything but a .5" diameter hole through him.  Nice try, you should read up  on terminal ballistics and woujnd channels.
Nosce Hostem
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Offline Desperado357

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« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2003, 09:46:52 PM »
:x nice try for what??? i was told that it would do that. but since you say it wont then.... i stand corrected about blowing them in halfbut the SHOCK alone would be to devastating to encounter and still stand or even live. i shot a plastic radio flyer wagon with 270 win and made a small hole but the thick hard plastic was ever so warped and there was a shallow dent the size of basebal around the hole. dont contradict your self by saying anyone shot with 12 aint gona walk away less good lord has purpose then saying totaly differant about 50 bmg becasue you got called upon like you tried to do me NICE TRY!! but your mistakin me! you should read up on....err go out and see for your self

Offline DEPUTY

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« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2003, 01:48:34 PM »
just got off the phone with some friends at crane!  and got some good after action reports sent to me!  detailing one incident wear a bg. got an arm taken off by the 50bmg round!  he lived for a day!  also cited many 5.556 faliures even using some new rounds! i wont mention due to security reasons, but certian 223 ammo has preformed quite well in cqb arena!  though some seal teams and  other ops have been employing a new version of the m-14!

Offline Brazos Bear

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« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2003, 07:14:13 AM »
What about a 12 ga pump using the Aguila mini-shells?

More rounds, much lighter recoil, and less pass-through in walls.

Or am I missing something?

Offline Savage

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« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2003, 02:41:24 PM »
Those little Aguila minis are a hoot to shoot aren't they! I am told the Winchester 1300 Defender shotguns will feed with these rounds without modification. I have no first hand info on this as all our issue shotguns are 870s or 37s. I've shot a couple dozen of those in my personal 870 by single loading them. Occasionally they will feed, but not 100%. Fun to shoot though!
Stay Safe,
Savage
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Offline kbmoly

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Alternative choice for teaching wives
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2003, 06:21:03 AM »
Fellows, my first wife was a classic "problem lady" to teach to shoot:  a petite little gal, highly intimidated by muzzle blast, absolutely terrified of recoil, because she KNEW it was going to hurt her, and generally didn't like guns anyway, anyhow.  

It tooka while to work it out, but I came up with something that she actually came to enjoy.  Here was my logic:

1.  Handguns were out.  She was never going to practice with one enough to become competent.  That left rifles, carbines and shotguns.

2.  Rifles were out because self defense situations simply don't occur over most of the ranges a rifle is designed for, and even light rifles tend to have a lot more penetration (read 'neighbor kid's bedroom') than is necessary.  

3.  Carbines were out because they have less penetration and range, but still a lot more of both than needed.  Too much more than the reduced recoil and noise justified.

That left shotguns.  Here's how I handled it:  First, I got her a medium weight 20 gauge for minimal recoil.  Then I stoked it with the lightest skeet loads I could lay my hands on.  At self defense distances, the birdshot will act like a solid slug on animal targets, be they on two or four legs.  But the birdshot won't go through much in the way of neighborhood walls, though they could be rough on any at close distances.  

But the big trick was twofold:  A pair of GOOD earmuffs to reduce the noise, which would have been painful without them.  And I taught her to shoot it FROM THE WAIST, not from the shoulder.  The difference in percieved recoil is astonishing!  You can shoot a shotgun painlessly with one hand that will kick the snot out of you from the shoulder.  Two hands are even better, and that's what she uses.  

That long barrel makes an aiming device plenty good enough for 'across the room' or 'down the hallway', especially on a man size target.  I made a game of bouncing tin cans from 15 or 20 feet, which she could do with ease after a few practice shots.  And because the gun didn't hurt her shoulder, the recoil ("jump") didn't bother her after she got used to it.  And with the muffs, the noise wasn't a problem either.  She actually came to enjoy practicing.  

Result:  A tiny lady with a BIG gun that she wasn't afraid of, knew how to use, and still not endanger everyone inside a mile or two.  And at close range, that skeet load will be devestating if she ever needs to shoot it:  There won't be any of this business of some doped up jerk taking half a dozen 9mm's before he drops.  It'll be "BLAM" - thud! and "911 Operator?  Please send the police and an ambulance to ... "  

kbmoly
Cast bullet enthusiast, former gunsmith, Reload for just about all common calibers, and a few very uncommon ones.

Offline DEPUTY

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« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2003, 03:44:32 AM »
actually, a carbine or rifle in the house 223 has less penetration that your 9mm or 40 handgun most 223 loads penetrate less then 12 inches inside house's  most srt/swat teams have swithched from mp5's series of guns to Ar-15 type weapon, it offers better stopping power, less penetration, better multi hit capability, and easy of use you should do a bit more research on that subject before posting! if you like i can post all the mounds of data i have on this! re think your choice  a carbine in the home will not hit little johnny in the next house unless you shoot through the glass as long as you choose the right load selection! also that long barrel is easier to take away too!

Offline Q400

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« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2003, 07:35:11 AM »
Mossberg 590A1,Vang barrel (backbored, forcing cone lengthend and compinsated) And Knoxx cop stock (top folder and recoil compinsated) overall length 28 inches folded BB shot or similer. Quit effective at reducing recoil even when shooting 3 inch magnums.

Offline dmachine

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« Reply #28 on: October 25, 2003, 03:49:14 AM »
Try a Ruger PC-9 9mm or the PC-4 .40 cal. carbines. I had a PC-9 and it was a very accurate and relieble gun. It uses Ruger pistol mags and you can get 20 rounders for it. They are cheap to buy, have no kick, no flash, and are not very load, so I think they would be a good choice for home defence. Put a touch pad light on one and your off and running! I would like it with a shorter barrel myself, but it is pretty easy to handle the way it is.

Offline Savage

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« Reply #29 on: October 26, 2003, 01:15:50 AM »
dmachine,
If overpenetration is a concern, I'd stay away from the pistol caliber carbines. A .223 shorty is much more effective and with the right ammo has much less penetration. Carbines and shotguns are more suitable for defense of a barricaded room than clearing. Too much danger of a disarm with a long gun if you have to leave your saferoom. I use both in some applications.
Stay Safe,
Savage
An appeaser is one who feeds the crocodile hoping it will eat him last,