350 gr. hornady 45/70 for deer

[hvacman]

has anyone used the 350 gr. Hornady rn in a 45/70 for whitetail deer. I have a supply of them in case I ever hunt anything bigger but am thinking about using them on deer this year. I haven't shot anything other than paper with them yet. The Hornady manual lists them for medium heavy game so I don't know if I should use them or not.

[quickdtoo]

I haven't used them on anything but paper either, but the fellas at Marlin Owners love them, Hornady has 2 350gr bullets, the FP is more popular and has a greater effective range of velocity than the RN which isn't used in Hornady's trapdoor data. Most of what I've read at MO on it show that 1600-1800fps for either is a good load for deer. One problem I've had with the FP is that I can't crimp in the cannelure due to the short throat on all 3 of my .45-70 barrels, but can on the RN. I like to crimp everything I can, studies that I've read, and my limited experience so far,  show that it helps accuracy by creating consistent bullet pull, and I like any help I can get, plus with the Lee FCD, they look cool!!

Tim

[Cheesehead]

I have taken my biggest white tail buck with the 350 round nose. 120 yards. Marlin 1895. Always groups under 2" at 100 yards. Maximum load of RL-7. Hit the buck through both lungs. As I approached he tried to get up and I shot again, a quartering shot behind the front shoulder. That finished him. As we were capeing him out I found the second slug under the skin of the neck near the skull. A huge mushroomed bullet. The penetration and bullet performance can be called outstanding.

Cheese

[jack19512]

Just to add something about crimp vs. no crimp.  I had this debate with others on another forum because I crimp all of my rifle ammo.  I was curious so I did a very not so scientific test after having some swear they get better accuracy with no crimp.

I used my K31 for this simple test.  I loaded six rounds of 7.5X55 and took care to make sure I loaded them all the same except crimp and no crimp.  Here are the two targets.  It would really be hard for me to make any decisions based solely on these two targets, but it doesn't seem to make any real difference one way or another but as you can see the crimped rounds were a little bit better group.  Best I can remember these groups were shot from 100 yards.  I would like to take my new BC 45/70 deer hunting this year and use the 300 gr. FN HP bullets.

[quickdtoo]

Sorry to get off the OP's topic, but google "crimping accuracy", look at the study titled....

THE EFFECTS OF CRIMPING ON ACCURACY AND VELOCITY

Tim

[Paul5388]

Tim,

It might be good to test a little more.  It might be more worthwhile for us if the test was done on a stright sided case, like the .45-70.  I don't crimp and I think I get decent groups with my Handi.  However, it has to be remembered, the Handi, while shooting good, isn't a target rifle! 

[quickdtoo]

Paul, I feel no need to test more, I like to crimp, it hurts nothing and I've read plenty from others that have shown appreciable inprovements in shot to shot velocity consistency with no other changes. Target rifles or not, a little more consistent accuracy never hurt anyone in my book, and it's free!! We all do little things to improve accuracy, it's like flash hole uniforming, not everyone does it, but I do it to every new case, just a little confidence builder for me, it only needs to be done once. 

Tim

[xhare]

I love the 350 grain round nose.  I have not tried the flat nose.  I have killed several deer with it.  My loads were on the heavy side, and the shots were close.  None of the deer made it more than a few yards before falling over.  Also, that bullet is extremely accurate in my Handi.

[hvacman]

thanks for the input I'll probably use them this year and hope I get an oppurtunity to shoot something. As for crimping, I do it with all my handgun ammo and the 45/70, no crimp for the 270 and 223. Just my way of doing it

[bambis nightmare]

I too have only shot paper with the 350's.  I can't seem to find a load I'm happy with.  I have the flat nose bullets and worked up to 47.0 grains of RX7.  Due to the short throat of my NEF the OAL is 2.495".  I'm sure they would be more that adequate on deer.  When I find a load that shoots acceptable, the 350's will be my #1 choice.

[quickdtoo]

I just ordered a rental throating reamer for $30, plan on doing all of my .45-70 barrels and the .45-120 barrrel with it, I got real tired of having to load short of SAAMI specs with some nice bullets!!

Welcome to GBO bambis nightmare!!

Tim

[jack19512]

Tim

Would you care to elaborate more on the throat reamer and it's use.  I am guessing you do this so you can load your ammo to longer OAL so you can add more powder in the case.  Is this correct?

[MSP Ret]

The 350 grain Hornady RNFP's loaded ahead of 28 grains of 2400 is my most accurate 45/70 load. Easy to shoot and VERY accurate and consistant, try it you will like it. I have been shooting this load for a long time and have spoken of it and offered it to many here who have also spoken of it's accuracy after trying it. I am unsure of the velocity of this load and would appreciate someone here who shoots it and has a chronograph to post it's speed....<><....

[quickdtoo]

Jack, it's just a tapered reamer that moves the leade deeper into the bore so you can load bullets to a longer COL without having to use bore rider type bullets. The reamer uses your own T-handle like for a tap to drive it by hand, along with some cutting oil. I rented one to do my .35 Rem Handi barrel so I could load bigger bullets. 300gr bullets in the .45-70 aren't a problem, but anything bigger and they need to take up powder space cuz of the short throat.

Tim

http://www.4-dproducts.com/display.php?group=Throaters&PHPSESSID=abc2836efe11be6950d93d80f6b6a541

[jack19512]

I guess I am confused.  So far I shoot mostly 300 gr. FN HP bullets in my 45/70 but have shot some 400 gr. and loaded them to the point where when shot I am surprised I didn't lose some filings from my teeth.

This is my first 45/70 and I know I have things to learn but what would a person shoot with the 45/70 that he needs to do this to his rifle?  I guess you can tell I must be missing something.

And what are bore rider type bullets?

[quickdtoo]

This is my first 45/70 and I know I have things to learn but what would a person shoot with the 45/70 that he needs to do this to his rifle? 

It's not a need to do, it's a want to do, and I can shoot whatever I want with em!!

And what are bore rider type bullets?

Bore rider bullets are dual diameter, the part ahead of the crimp groove is smaller to fit in the bore past the throat.

Tim

http://www.competitor-pistol.com/jb%20home.html

[Dr. A]

I haven't used them on anything but paper either, but the fellas at Marlin Owners love them, Hornady has 2 350gr bullets, the FP is more popular and has a greater effective range of velocity than the RN which isn't used in Hornady's trapdoor data. Most of what I've read at MO on it show that 1600-1800fps for either is a good load for deer. One problem I've had with the FP is that I can't crimp in the cannelure due to the short throat on all 3 of my .45-70 barrels, but can on the RN. I like to crimp everything I can, studies that I've read, and my limited experience so far,  show that it helps accuracy by creating consistent bullet pull, and I like any help I can get, plus with the Lee FCD, they look cool!!

Tim

Reflex, from Marlin Owners, has reported on the differences between the two bullets.  The flat nose was designed specifically for the 450 Marlin, which along with the 45-70 Marlin have longer throats than most other 45-70's.  The flat nose will raise pressures in Ruger #1's, making them greater pressure than normal loads. This could easily make a Marlin load into a Ruger load.   I don't know if this applies to the H#R, but I am suspicious it does.  I shoot only the round nose, (and have had luck with them), but it may be time for a call to Hornady if you are curous about using the flat noses.  To me, it sounds suspicious of greater pressures generated  due to the ogive of the flat nose.  If the flat nose does not fit in the  chamber without using the cannelure, I think you have your answer.

[quickdtoo]

FWIW, the Hornady 6th shows data for the FP and RN from 1400fps to 1900fps in the levergun data and 1700 to 2200fps in the ruger data, COL is the same in both pressure levels, 2.550" for the RN and 2.545" for the FP. They don't show any 350gr data in the trapdoor loads due to the fact that neither will expand at trapdoor velocities, that was confirmed by email with Hornady last year in a thread here at the time. Either way, the pressures of the .450 Marlin aren't an isssue since the Handi is chambered in it also as well as the .500S&W which is comparable to ruger level pressures and case head thrust in a .45-70.

Tim

[Dr. A]

The pressures listed pertain to shooting them in a Marlin sized chamber.  The same bullet (flat nose) may produce a 40000 CUP load in Marlin with X amount of H4198, and then loaded to the same length and will inadvertantly produce 10000 CUP pressure MORE in a Ruger #1 because in the difference of the chamber size.  I have Hornady's 6th, and am frankly surpised they don't mention the flat nose as being meant for the Marlins more than they do.

Reflex did state thus:


Hey Dr. A. The 350fn load (Marlin only) is XXXXXXXXXXXX  in a Remington nickel case (brand new) with a 210m primer. It goes 2025fps out of my LTD-V and shoots 1" groups. I posted before about using this bullet in any other .45-70 other than a Marlin but just in case here goes. Hodgdon called me after several attempts to get a good pressure test kept resulting in high pressures in excess of 50,000cup. I discussed it with them but had already discussed it with Hornady. This bullet as we all know was designed just for the .450 Marlin. The ogive is so far forward on it that in a saami spec chamber the bullet is jammed into the rifling. Marlins throat is unique in that it allows a shallow seating depth. The same load that can't be shot in any other gun safely generates 35,000psi in a Marlin. This is as good an all around Marlin 45-70 load as you will ever find. I have had hunters field testing with this load and a variation loaded in Starline cases with a slightly different powder charge but the same velocity for two hunting seasons. Sand draw jake and his son and son inlaw joined in on the field tests this time. This load handles elk with real authority. It has taken everything from elk to antilope and I haven't had a bad field test report yet. For use in your Ruger the 350rn does a good job with the same powder charge and brass.
My Ruger is the most cooperative gun I have ever seen. I have shot 1/2" groups at 100 yards with it using everything from 300jhp's to 460gr cast bullets. I kiled a doe with it last year with one of the 460grs at 184 yards. A young boy went on the young sportsman hunt with it and a 300gr at 1500fps and killed a doe. The gun just plain shoots whatever you stick in it. reflex264

[quickdtoo]

All the more reason to do proper load work with each new bullet and powder chosen, but I don't see it as a nix on using the 350gr FP in a Handi/BC, specially if it's throated for the bigger bullets so book COL can be used.

Thanks for the info,

Tim

[Grizz_]

I can't answer the question about the 350gr out of the 45/70 for deer, but I have killed a LOT of deer with a 320gr bullet out of a 44 mag handgun at less than 1200fps velocity. All one-shot kills.

You could extrapolate from that and make a pretty good guess about the effect of a 350gr bullet out of a 45/70. It's worth a try, I'd say.....

Grizz

[MSP Ret]

OK, I will try to do just that this firearms season in Maine. I will use my 45/70 Handi loaded with my home rolled rounds of a 350 grain RNFP Hornady ahead of 28.0 grains of 2400 in Remington brass. This load shoots very well for me and I will try to take a Maine whitetail with it and report on how well it works. Just for nostalgia I may carry my old faithful Marlin 336 in .35 Remington on a couple of days, but if a shot presents itself I truely hope it is when I have my 45/70 Handi in my hands, my .35 has had it's share of memories already....<><....

[quickdtoo]

I have no doubt it will work just fine MSP, I bet you don't get one complaint about it!! I'll be extemely happy just to get to hunt this year, regardless of what I decide to carry!!

Tim